New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[lg1726]

As the motion has not been starred for debate it is merely an opinion and will not have any real impact and interestingly, it has not received any supporting signatures to this, not event he other Green MSP. However, were that to change and supporting MSPs sign the motion, that does provide a cohort of MSPs to seek to lobby on the wider issue, so it could prove to be a useful exercise for all concerned! As to PPAG dropping the appeal, that seems about as likely now as me winning last night's euro millions!!!!

[gillian]

Well, if you did win don't forget your fellow posters. Solidarity and all that!!

[Makaveli]

Quote from Gillian on the 'Save Porty Park' facebook page:-

They call the park the "golfie" and many were unaware during the "consultation" process that "Portobello Park" was the same place. I was brought up there and didn't know its official name. To me that's just another example of how underhand the council has behaved during this process.

If Gillian had actually bothered to go and use the park she might have seen the sign posts on the fencing round the park calling it "Portobello Park"!!! This is one of the most laughable statements I have seen!!!

I would have replied on the Save Porty Park facebook page but they have denied me my right to freedom of speech by banning me becasue I asked some questions that they clearly have no answer for.

[Epykat]

I'm pretty sure Gillian has used 'the park' more times than you've had hot dinners. The 'Park' - as long as I've lived here which is a long time - has NEVER been called Portobello Park. To local people it has always been 'the golfie' or, at the very least 'the top of the golfie'. Much the same as we have never had a 'Magdalene Glen' (which is the most laughable thing the Council have come up with yet). Oh, and we don't live in a village either

[Makaveli]

So what does that say about you and Gillian that you have lived here soooooooooooooo loooooooooonnnnnggggg and yet an interloper like me who has only lived here a few years knows what the local park is actually called?

And what does she use it for? I can only presume dog walking as that is the only folk I ever see on it.

[Paxetamor]

Mak, I too, I'm sure it will come as no surprise, didn't know that the Golfie was now called Portobello Park until fairly recently and I live in Magdalene. So what does that say about me?

I'm stunned that you admitted to seeing anybody in the park. I always thought that this forum was all about when there wasn't anybody there. As for dog walkers, if they are using it, it is through a total lack of places to go(without driving). I took my dog there the other day and it was a nightmare. The grass hasn't been cut for weeks and is now half way up your legs, you can't see what you're standing on=shit. I also had a walk in the 'glen'. It was lovely but, like the park, there's nothing to do except walk your dog, if you have one, I'm thinking that you don't.

[Epykat]

So what does that say about you and Gillian that you have lived here soooooooooooooo loooooooooonnnnnggggg and yet an interloper like me who has only lived here a few years knows what the local park is actually called?

And what does she use it for? I can only presume dog walking as that is the only folk I ever see on it.

I think you're putting words into my mouth again. We have lived here sooooooooooooo loooooooooooooonnnnnnnngggggggg. Sorry, but that's a fact. That's all. A fact. Can't help it that we were born here, it sort of just happened. Not denying you know what the local park is actually called. But actually it's only been called that since the school thing happened. I have absolutely no idea why you've called yourself an interloper. Your words, not mine. Maybe it's you who has the problem with the fact that you haven't lived here all that long. I don't have a problem with that. And you presume wrong with the dog walking (just to clear that up).

[Makaveli]

I don't have a problem with how long you have lived it is just that mentioned it twice in your post and have now had this out to be what I was on about.

I was merely pointing out that in years I have been here it has been called Portobello Park - there is a sign on the gate and anyone who frequents the park would surely see it and know that.

What my point is is that Gillian is trying to say that local people were not fussed about the school going on Portobello Park until they found out where Portobello Park is which not only is an insane point of view but also blows the who 'green angle' right out of the water!!!

And I didn't put any words into your mouth as I did not quote you at any point.

And as for only seeing dog walkers I admit that the park is well used by dog walkers - I cycle past it everyday and you can see the mess that they leave behind - whether that be on the grass or on the pavement next to the park - must be a great place for the kids to play dodging all that dogs muck!!! And Paxetamor you will be delighted when the new school is built as you will have lovely new path ways to walk your dog on that do not have knee high grass on them. Good news I am sure you will agree.

[Paxetamor]

Mak, I think that the only thing we probably agree on is a disgust of dog shit not being picked up. Which, I have to say, is usually men that leave it for the Dogshit Fairy. The same goes for the pavements and I'm talking about pavements everywhere, not just the one beside the park. How you manage to see all the shit from your bike is very impressive. I never see it until I've slid on it, which only happened last week when I couldn't see anything for the length of the grass. Are you a child? Why are you cycling on the pavement? Is the road too dangerous?

As for the pathways once the new school is built. Pfft.

[Makaveli]

I think you need to grow up a wee bit. Why are you calling me a child? Not the first time you have been slinging mud about me on this website is it?

I cycle ON THE ROAD (nowhere did I say I cycle on the pavement) past the park everyday with my wee girl on the back of my bike so am not going at warp speed so can easily see dog mess on the pavement.

And why the 'pfft' for the new pathways at the school? Was it not you only in your last couple of posts complaining of dog mess and long grass? Surely a nice new path to walk your doggie on would be wonderful non?

[Paxetamor]

I assumed that you must cycle on the pavement to see the shit in the park. My apologies, your eyesight must be even better than I originally thought.
I'm not aware of any mud-slinging directed at you and I really can't be bothered looking back to check but it has never been my intention to disrespect anyone unless they have seen fit to do it to me. You're right, I should grow up and learn to ignore some of the complete crap that gets posted on here.
Pfft=Believe it when I see it. So, non.

[rmolehusband]

Not denying you know what the local park is actually called. But actually it's only been called that since the school thing happened.

Lots of places have local names, I occasionally drink in a pub still known by the name of a licence holder who died in the 1920s. A lot of Porty parents will recognise the name 'Pirate Park' and not 'Straighton Place Park'. The relevant question in this case, Makaveli's original point, is to whether there was any confusion during the consultation.

Gillian Dunn has suggested council's use of the name 'Portobello Park' meant a lot of residents didn't realise where the school was to be built, and so they didn't object. She goes as far to suggest that this was a deliberate ploy. This is, as Makaveli pointed out, is ludicrous on so many levels.

However, If Gillian or anyone else had felt this was an issue during the consultation then the is no doubt that PPAG would have funded the production of leaflets explaining that the school was to be built on the 'The Golfie' and probably helped her to distribute them to every house in the area. If these people would only care when they discovered the park in question was 'their' park it would make them a perfect fit as PPAG supporters.

There is also the question of why PPAG would chose the name 'Portobello Park' to head their campaign if it was likely to cause confusion. If the name was an issue then 'Golfie Action Group' would have been a far better name on several levels, most notably in reflecting PPAG's censorship of any opinions contrary to their own.

[Pal of Porty]

D-Day tomorrow.

[Porty]

Yep

[gillian]

Well, you two are very profound today!!

[Porty]

So we are but it's not a pact, honest. Talk is best done in court now.

[Sceptic]

Never mind, there's always the Supreme Court, ECHR, United Nations, etc., etc., etc..

Perhaps they are trying either to bore us to death, or just keep it going so that the Council, never mind which Council, simply gives up in total and utter frustration.

Meanwhile the "dirty dump" PHS carries on.

You know, it's the Teachers and Students I feel sorry for.

Maybe that's why I'm Sceptic.

[Pal of Porty]

The PPAG lot have crossed the line by such a large margin that I think they are psychotically driven to appeal forever, whatever the circumstances. I just hope the Council will commence with the building work once PPAG have lost this appeal. I have already ordered, 'Drop the appeal appeal' posters.

[fresian]

d day today, but will we actually get a decision today???

[Pal of Porty]

Latest report from court lunchtime break - PPAG QC doing well.

[Maria]

Latest report from court lunchtime break - PPAG QC doing well.

Do you mean to look so pleased about that PoP?

[Maria]

From the BBC site Portobello High School plan appeal begins

[Pal of Porty]

Latest report from court lunchtime break - PPAG QC doing well.

Do you mean to look so pleased about that PoP?

I must have been thinking of how well the Council's QC was going to perform.

[Maria]

I must have been thinking of how well the Council's QC was going to perform.

That's a relief. For an awful moment I thought you had been possessed

[Jamesie]

I just hope the Council will commence with the building work once PPAG have lost this appeal.

If the appeal is lost it remains to be seen whether an appeal is made to the Supreme Court in London - but the costs of that would make the Court of Session costs look like small change.

[Maria]

I know it is difficult to quantify, Jamesie, but can you give us a ball park figure?

[fresian]

The costs will certainly outweigh any feared reduction in their property value, that's for sure. It will be interesting to see if Mouchel bid for any work with CEC in future.

[Porty]

Having observed the last couple of days in court in their entirtey, I don't believe costs will be a derailer for PPAG. Their QC, who was excellent, seemed more than a little keen to have the Inner House refer the 2003 Act back to the Outer House as this "new" strand had not been fully considered and adjudicated upon. He must have urged the Lord's NOT to do so, at least half a dozen times.

We saw what he did there.

[lg1726]

I completely agree re the costs not derailing the PPAG momentum and I really do feel that those in favour of the school proposal going ahead now need to start to prepare to push for CEC to push on with the pursuance of ALL costs at their end. This then becomes an all Edinburgh position and all of Edinburgh need to made aware that they are paying for the frivolity of PPAG. Any costs borne by CEC will mean an adjustment to the delivery of council core services. That is free nursery places, care costs for the elderly, libraries, sports provision (including the golf course!), social housing, fostering services, rubbish and recycling and so on. There is a massive message in there for all Edinburgh council tax payers - do they want the council to foot the cost of defending the PPAG challenge at the expense of core services, or do they want the council to use every avenue to get costs back from PPAG and help to maintain core services in these very straiten times!?

[Lashylass]

Porty - I must agree that Roy Martin QC was excellent. What did you think of the council's QC, Sarah Wolffe?

[Porty]

Sarah Wolffe was cool, comprehensive, factual and thorough. I expect her written submission and accompanying authority's is a powerful document. I'm sure she didn't have the time she would have liked to verbalise all that her written submission contains but she batted the key balls out of the park.

Mrs Wolffe demonstrated an adept knowledge of what's actually written in the various acts and tied it together with a lot of supportive case law.

Her assertion, which is fact, that Mr Martin must win on all three counts in order to be succesful with the reclaiming motion was sobering. Her further assertion that in order to recall Lady Dorrian's decision on Mora the Lords would have to identify an actual error in law, rather than simply have a different opinion, was powerful medicine. Illustrating just how difficult it is for PPAG to win. Especially since in his submission Mr Martin did not identify any such error in law. Makes me think there's not one, surely he would have pointed it out to the lords?

So all in all I think she was worth her fee, good value for us council tax payers.

[Porty]

Porty - I must agree that Roy Martin QC was excellent. What did you think of the council's QC, Sarah Wolffe?

You may recall we had an exchange on the QC's performace last time out?

... both QC’s did their clients proud.

They certainly did.

[seanie]

There was a difficulty in that they were compressing what took 3 days of arguments last time into just 2, with the issue of the 2003 Local Givernment in Scotland act added in. A lot of arguments weren't developed in detail and instead reference to the written submissions and supporting references were given. There was too much for the judges to get a handle on there and then. They'll have to go away and go through the submissions in detail before they get a feel for the key issues.

Unfortunately I can't see a decision before July.

[Lashylass]

But judging by how irritated and jumpy you were at some of the questions you obviously got a feel for the key issues.

[gillian]

!