Portobello Community Council

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 16 Sep 2010, 18:51

Marya wrote: I can understand , however, that some people might feel that their privacy had been somehow invaded. I mean, if you want to contact your local CEC councillor you use their work email address, not their personal one, so I don't think we should assume that it is somehow dodging one's civic duty by wanting a bit of privacy.

I'm really struggling with the idea that in some way the receipt of an Email can invade someone's privacy. Can you explain Marya?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 16 Sep 2010, 19:02

I would imagine that who is actually on the PCC is public domain. But contact details are another matter. I imagine many members will be amenable to being e-mailed, either personally or via some mail system and I promise to sort something out.

But there's an awful lot of antagonsim and upset in the air that really isn't helping.

Everyone chill.

Have a drink or something.

I find it helps.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 16 Sep 2010, 19:06

Yeah, sorry about the pointy hats. But you do need to maintain a sense of humour at moments of crisis like this.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 16 Sep 2010, 19:08

Bob Jefferson wrote:What about the ones who don't want to be identified or contacted in any way? Wouldn't they be better going the whole hog and wearing some sort of disguise? White cloaks with pointy hats perhaps?

I'm not kidding..............one of the CC members I wrote to called to ask me where i got the Email address?

They didn't get me first time and didn't leave a message so dialled 1471. I explained that I had lifted the Email address from a list. (Incidentally; was the list marked "Private and Confidential- not to be used for Community Council business?" No, it was clearly a list of Portobello Community Councillors)

The person was quite irate and persisted in trying to find the source. I said you sound quite annoyed; "Are you at all happy to be contacted by members of the public?" The reply was an emphatic NO!!!

Once I hung up I considered calling the police and reporting them for being in posession of my phone number. Then I remembered I'd put it on my Email to them .

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 16 Sep 2010, 19:17

Porty wrote:Once I hung up I considered calling the police and reporting them for being in posession of my phone number. Then I remembered I'd put it on my Email to them .

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 16 Sep 2010, 20:52

what is the big idea about being contacted by email? It is merely the electronic equivalent of snail mail. Are they going to complain about unsolicited post if people contact them about PCC matters by post too? Sounds as they just don't like being contacted. They need to grow up and enter the real world - email is quick and convenient and that is why people use it.
As for not having your "real name" on your home email addy - I'd say this is perfectly normal. My work addy shows my first name and surname, plus organisation. What is the problem with having a nickname/hobby or whatever in your home addy?
Sounds like some people just like to complain - could they be trying to deflect attention away from the real matter at hand, which is that PCC seems to follow its own agenda in certain issues?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 16 Sep 2010, 20:53

Putting things in perspective. I wrote to about 20 people, only 3 were curious about how I got the Email address, others seemed nonchalant, all were polite, even the one that called me.

I believe there was one other CC member who was "spitting blood" to discover her Email address had been violated. If I'm guessing correctly? she will have demanded to know the source.

I just hope someone directed her to the City Council website where her Email address and home phone number are there for all to see as "contact details".

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 16 Sep 2010, 21:24

Porty wrote:
Marya wrote: I can understand , however, that some people might feel that their privacy had been somehow invaded. I mean, if you want to contact your local CEC councillor you use their work email address, not their personal one, so I don't think we should assume that it is somehow dodging one's civic duty by wanting a bit of privacy.
I'm really struggling with the idea that in some way the receipt of an Email can invade someone's privacy. Can you explain Marya?

Probably not, as I didn't feel that strongly about it and I suspect it can't be explained very rationally, but I'm trying to empathise, because it's nice to be nice

Fundamentally, I think most people have a natural sense of privacy, that, for some perhaps, has been a bit upset by the digital age. See this for a flavour of what I mean.

Additionally, sit back and let me tell you a story....

In the very recent past, I misdialed a single digit of my home number from my mobile. As soon as the phone at the other end rang I realised my mistake and hung up, before the other person answered. Unfortunately, as it turned out , the person I had phoned was not your average Joe. He was paranoid about this abandoned phone call, used 1471 and immediately bombarded me with aggressive texts that grew more abusive and threatening, saying he could find out my address from my number etc. and describing what he would do to me when he turned up at my house. I was pretty shaken. I knew my fear was not really a rational one, but it didn't help. Then, just as suddenly as the texts had started, they stopped and I relaxed and forgot all about them.

A year(!) later I went to read a text on my phone and nearly dropped the phone. The threatening texts had started again and with a vengeance; threatening all sorts of explicit sexual violence. Now, these weren't phone calls, they were texts, but I found myself shaking that day each time I got a text alert. I decided immediately to change my number ( despite having had the same number for 13 years) and reported the texts to the Police who were very supportive; they tracked the man from his phone number and warned him about his conduct.

I was just imagining if it had been emails and not texts.

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 16 Sep 2010, 21:34

Any abusive texts or phone calls should always be reported to the police immediately.
But there is a world of difference between threats and a person contacting a local representative about a PCC matter. It's all a matter of perspective. If you voluntarily go onto a community council, then it stands to reason people will want to contact you. Doesn't it?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 16 Sep 2010, 21:38

Usually I would fight the inclination to make a joke and lose hands down.

That is a terrible story, deeply unpleasant. Not really relevant to the PCC Email thing but I'm sure you don't want to go there or indeed intend it that way.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 16 Sep 2010, 21:51

seashell wrote: If you voluntarily go onto a community council, then it stands to reason people will want to contact you. Doesn't it?

Of course, which is why there are two email addresses for folk to use.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 16 Sep 2010, 21:54

Which even members of the PCC aren't sure work.

C'mon, surely we can try a little harder.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 16 Sep 2010, 21:58

Porty wrote: That is a terrible story, deeply unpleasant. Not really relevant to the PCC Email thing but I'm sure you don't want to go there or indeed intend it that way.

Certainly not! I don't in a million years want to suggest the PCC emails were anything but polite.But I'd still be happier using another email address for CC communication for admin purposes if nothing else. Plus I hate all the spam that you inevitably get once your email goes 'public'.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:05

Marya wrote:
seashell wrote: If you voluntarily go onto a community council, then it stands to reason people will want to contact you. Doesn't it?
Of course, which is why there are two email addresses for folk to use.

Why would the CC need 2 different contact email addresses? Because they were set up independently by the two joint secretaries. That in itself speaks volumes. And now I can't recall which is which. Heads you get Nick, tails you get Diana.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:05

seanie wrote:Which even members of the PCC aren't sure work.

C'mon, surely we can try a little harder.

I know, I know.....

I've pushed several times to get the CC pages on Porty.org filled up with personal profiles, but to no avail.

You might have more luck if you volunteer to create a dedicated website.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:07

I'm not at all techinical. It took me 2 years to set up the Towerbank Council web-site.

But there's has to be a simple mail system to allow people to contact Community Councillors without involving personal e-mails. I really don't think that it's necessary, or desirable, to have all contact directed through a central e-mail address.

If you're on the PCC you really should be contactable by the public in some direct way.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:09

Marya wrote:I've pushed several times to get the CC pages on Porty.org filled up with personal profiles, but to no avail.

Well, we've already discussed this. Just give me the pics and email addresses of those members who would like to participate and I'll just put a big question mark against the others.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:09

I really do not get this email secrecy thing.

It took me 5 or 6 seconds to log on to the CoE Council Web site to get a contact name for the PCC. The contact details included full name, home address and a telephone number, which to me is an information level way, way above an email address. These were the details of only one person but within a few minutes I easily found some more email addresses of other PCC members.

I could have spent a little more time to find additional addresses so I am therefore struggling to understand why a PCC member could get annoyed by their address being utilised by a Porty citizen when so many of their addresses are already in the public domain. If any PCC member requested not to receive 'community related' emails from public members on any particular email address then I would be most surprised if this request would not be fully respected, provided an alternative means of communication was provided.

It is frustrating that the issue has moved on to 'how did you get my email address?', rather than the contents of the emails themselves

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:10

Marya wrote:You might have more luck if you volunteer to create a dedicated website.

I'd be perfectly willing.

It may've taken me two years for the Towerbank one, but it'd take me an hour to do another one.

But, as a suggestion, the phrase "brick budgie" comes to mind.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:17

seanie wrote:But there's has to be a simple mail system to allow people to contact Community Councillors without involving personal e-mails.

There is. As wangi has suggested, either talkporty or Portobello Online could facilitate this. So, for example, a single contact address such as ccmembers@porty.org.uk would automatically forward to each of the members of the community council. It would take a matter of minutes to set up.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:23

Gentlemen, you are treating the symptoms - technology is not the problem!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 16 Sep 2010, 22:31

You mean we have led the horse to water but it refuses to drink because it's dead and we're still flogging it?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 16 Sep 2010, 23:06

Bob Jefferson wrote:There is. As wangi has suggested, either talkporty or Portobello Online could facilitate this. So, for example, a single contact address such as ccmembers@porty.org.uk would automatically forward to each of the members of the community council. It would take a matter of minutes to set up.

But that suggestion needs to be made to the PCC as a whole.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 17 Sep 2010, 00:02

seanie wrote:
Bob Jefferson wrote:There is. As wangi has suggested, either talkporty or Portobello Online could facilitate this. So, for example, a single contact address such as ccmembers@porty.org.uk would automatically forward to each of the members of the community council. It would take a matter of minutes to set up.
But that suggestion needs to be made to the PCC as a whole.

Can I perhaps cut to the chase?

Bob, seen by many as a bitter, disillusioned, ex-member of the PCC, is a vocal critic on here of the present membership (pointy hats etc). How many members do you envisage being happy about him having easy access to all correspondence sent to and from the PCC?

Similarly, Wangi is sole administrator for Talk Porty , which is seen by many CC members as a haven for bullies, gossip mongers and disillusioned ex-PCC members.

(I hasten to add I do not present these character assassinations as my own view!)

Do you seriously think either offer would be given any consideration?

Makaveli · Post by **Makaveli** » 17 Sep 2010, 03:33

Marya wrote:
Plus I hate all the spam that you inevitably get once your email goes 'public'.

So has there been a load of spam since the e-mails? I doubt it.

As to Marya's suggestion above that there is some sort of vendetta going against some of the PCC and the members of this forum I for one don't give two hoots if there is or is not bad blood and I know many of my friends and neighbours in Porty who know nothing of the history of any ill feeling and who like me DO NOT CARE about the petty snipping that may go on all we care about is getting our voices heard.

Why did we not get involved when the first consultation was done you might ask? Well us and many others have only moved into the area in the past few years so were either not living in the area or were too new to the area to be able to give a reasoned opinion. The consoltation was done a few years ago now and I am sure there are many hundreds of new people that have moved into the area since who's opinions are just as valid as someone who has lived here all there lives.

I can't believe the fuss that a couple of e-mails have caused but I can see that by there attemps at blackmail they are trying to make sure that the people of Porty do not attempt to contact them with their opinion - well I am very sorry but myself and others are going to have our opinion put across whether that be via the PCC or some other means.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 17 Sep 2010, 07:32

Marya wrote:Do you seriously think either offer would be given any consideration?

There are two answers to this. Firstly, there is no reason why wangi or I should be copied in to any such correspondence. Once it was set up it would be an automatic process.

Secondly, what we are offering is a technical solution. Just about anyone who hosts a web site could provide a similar service.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 17 Sep 2010, 07:43

And thirdly, trust works both ways. How do we, as members of the community, currently know that messages sent to either one of the two email addresses for the CC are going to be forwarded to each of the members? Are our views going to paraphrased, distorted or perhaps just ignored if they don't fit with those of the recipient?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 17 Sep 2010, 07:54

Makaveli wrote:
Marya wrote:
Plus I hate all the spam that you inevitably get once your email goes 'public'.
So has there been a load of spam since the e-mails? I doubt it.

C'mon. I didn't say it would be instantaneous, especially when it only involves 3 folk (one of whom already had my personal email anyway).

Why did we not get involved when the first consultation was done you might ask? Well us and many others have only moved into the area in the past few years so were either not living in the area or were too new to the area to be able to give a reasoned opinion. The consoltation was done a few years ago now and I am sure there are many hundreds of new people that have moved into the area since who's opinions are just as valid as someone who has lived here all there lives.

A very good point Makavelli.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 17 Sep 2010, 07:55

seanie wrote:But that suggestion needs to be made to the PCC as a whole.

Then perhaps you would be so good as to convey our offers and suggestions at the next CC meeting?

To reiterate, either TP or POL can offer an automatic email forwarding facility.

POL is happy to host such details of CC members as they are willing to share including (but not limited to) names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, a photograph and some background info about each member.

POL is happy to maintain an archive of CC correspondence that should properly be in the public domain.

TP is willing to provide, free of charge, a private and/or hidden forum for CC members to communicate between themselves.

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 17 Sep 2010, 08:38

Makaveli wrote:I know many of my friends and neighbours in Porty who know nothing of the history of any ill feeling and who like me DO NOT CARE about the petty snipping that may go on all we care about is getting our voices heard.

I think that this is a clear statememt which does sum up what a lot of people in Porty think and probably why a lot of people dont get involved. However, I also think that all this negativity is unhealthy and takes away from all of the good things that the CC does - seems only Maria is trying to make that voice heard at the moment. It would be nice to hear from some of the others.

Franck · Post by **Franck** » 17 Sep 2010, 08:52

Marya wrote:
C'mon. I didn't say it would be instantaneous, especially when it only involves 3 folk (one of whom already had my personal email anyway).

Well, I'm not going to start spamming your email, quite frankly I've got better things to do with my time.Cheers for the vote of confidence,though.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 17 Sep 2010, 09:09

Bob Jefferson wrote:Secondly, what we are offering is a technical solution. Just about anyone who hosts a web site could provide a similar service.

So, for example, whoever hosts the Edinburgh Neighbourhood Partnership website could offer this service.

http://www.edinburghnp.org.uk/community ... ortobello-

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 17 Sep 2010, 09:34

As I have already said...

I promise, that I will arrange some sort of web page or site, somewhere, that has up to date contact details for the office bearers as well as those Community Councillors who are willing to be contacted by e-mail. I'm sure a number will be OK with that including myself.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 17 Sep 2010, 09:38

Ah, you mean like this one?

Post by **wangi** » 17 Sep 2010, 09:40

Seems like additional effort when a website already exists (porty.org.uk) that is a perfect match.