New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal

[Sceptic]

Rathbone, thanks for note appreciating my concerns re refurbishment. However, no-one has, up till now, convinced me on what do we do with 1500 pupils and staff for 2-3 years while the building is stripped and brought up to standard.
Refurbishment is more than a lick of paint, it's ripping out worn out flooring wiring, replacing pipework for water, drainage and heating, bringing everything up to date and meeting present building regulations. Replacing all the windows, making them double glazed for energy efficiency, try doing that from the inside on the eigth floor. Inspecting all the concrete, checking for spalling, replacing as required. On top of that, until you start ripping, what you might find is anyone's guess. My experience is that building drawings NEVER match up to actual. Materials not as expected, pipework different, etc., etc., etc.. Doing all that with children on site is a non starter for Health and Safety reasons, if no other.On top of that, builders need accomodation for Managers, storage for materials in use, workshops to construct on site, with the best will in the worls, not everything can be constructed of site.
I have experience school refurbishment at first hand, trying to work while a builder team ripps out the room down the corridor is dirty, noisy & unsettling, and that is only the minor points. So, where do you transfer 1400 pupils to during all this? In addition, remember the disruption to Transport, pupils on buses, parents transporting pupils and lorry loads of building materials? This not a minor point, buiding sites are unsafe areas, it's not an area children, whatever their age, and I am aware that Towerbank is being extended, should be near. I am labouring the point because it is a major concern, not just a small nit pick.

[Epykat]

[The tower, in my opinion, is unacceptable on the grounds that it is nigh on impossible to get 1400+ children around it safely. I didn't attend this school so have no direct experience, just what my children have told me. The "stair crushes" as you will know, really do happen. Not safe full stop.

That's a real part of the argument against the current school Rosa and I can fully understand people who have never been in the school being worried about the safety of the building because this is what they've been told over and over.

At the moment, there ARE a lot of kids using the stairs although, in my personal experience, there are very, very few accidents and the pupils are constantly being reminded of how to behave on the stairs and should be expected to take some responsibility for their own safety and that of others, they are young adults after all.

However, the tower was designed with four lifts and it was never intended that over 1000 people would use the stairs as a way of getting around the building. The design is such that the kids move around the building using the lifts with each lift serving different floors and manned by a member of staff at changeover times. Unfortunately these have been left to get into a state of disrepair and now only one lift is used (although all four still work as far as I know) and therefore this has to be rationed and the majority have to use the stairs. If the building were refurbished the lift system would be up and working again and the stair crush problems would be resolved. The current classrooms are all of a very good size, the Art department is open plan, so nothing would have to be created, it's already there and with a newly built 2/3 storey block replacing the house rooms there is the potential for more classrooms/work areas.

If it comes to it and a Plan B is the only option, then it's time people stopped looking at the negatives in the tower and started concentrating on the positives of which there are many, not least of all the fact that, outwith the tower, the toilets and the house blocks, the rest of the building is in reasonable order.

As far as snobbishness goes, I do think there's an element creeping in. There's a slight stigma for some people regarding tower blocks. They're mainly associated with more deprived areas of towns and cities and a nice, green, open countrytype setting might be more appealing to some, but again, that's just my opinion and by no means applies to all.

[Epykat]

So, where do you transfer 1400 pupils to during all this?.

Obviously that's not going to be simple but you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette as they say.

There are three secondary schools in the vicinity - Castlebrae, Holyrood and Leith Academy (at a push, four if you really want to include Musselburgh Grammar). The pupils/staff could be split between the three with the decision on who goes where based on how close in proximity they were to each school. Departments requiring specialist equipment such as Science, CDT etc could share with the host school whilst other departments could use portakabins if needs be. Since a term usually lasts less than 8 weeks it wouldn't be such a huge hardship to go somewhere else for that time before you got a wee break. Add into that exam leave and you can take out 4-6 years for quite a chunk of time. If the Tower was started during the Summer holidays a lot of the really messy stuff could be done in that time. Seeing as how the part of the building which houses the Assembly hall is in reasonable nick the exam takers might even be able to use that to take their exams in if that was preferable. As work progressed certain year groups could move back in - it wouldn't be the first time they've worked through window replacement work.

Other educational establishments have done this kind of thing successfully down South and the turnaround time is approximately one year - so not a massive sacrifice.

As an aside - in my experience the more members of their peer group that children get to know the safer they are on the streets. Sharing facilities with other schools and with kids in other areas can only be a positive thing and something to be encouraged.

[Chas]

[There are three secondary schools in the vicinity - Castlebrae, Holyrood and Leith Academy (at a push, four if you really want to include Musselburgh Grammar).

OK, so for the first time, someone is posting a suggestion of how to decant. But my question is, do these institutions have the capacity (and the willingness in the case of Holy Rood and Musselburgh) to take the PHS pupils for possibly up to 2 years? Just asking…

[Sceptic]

It will take weeks if not months to pack up a science department and slightly more to set it up. Remember teaching will have to on during this. Do it througth the holidays, do I hear? Who is going to do it? Teachers, they are on holiday, Technicians; also on holiday,or else, due to council policy are sessional, and do not work during the holidays. Casual labour, now you are having a giraffe! English department? Pack up books, set up again.Would the people who have never worked in a school, know nothing about the workings of a school please stop making statements outwith their knowledge. There are schools who have moved to a new build years ago and are still unpacking. Not through anything elsen than teaching and unpacking cannot be done at the same time by the same people.
PE facilities? Eating facilities? Space for children to sit SQA Examinations?
Oh, and by the way Musselburgh Grammar is in East Lothian, not in the City of Edinburgh. Leith would not have the space for additional classes, Castlebrae might, but would YOU send your son / daughter up there? You need all facilities for all courses that PHS offer onsite at all times, bussing schoolchildren around Edinburgh is NOT anoption as 50 children per bus, we are talking of 28 buses at start and end of every teaching day, COST? Even availablity of them.Once you start down this road, the strategegic problem rise up time and time again.
It would seem some people do not realise half the activities associated with a school.

[Betty Windsor]

Maybe with a school like PHS it could be done n a phased way and there may be no need for full decant. Castlebrae is well under capacity and could cope with a few portacabins. Holyrood is also at least 100 short on capacity so with a few portacabins could accommodate more. The host schools may not be thrilled at the prospect, but as Holyrood and Castlebrae staff are employed by CEC, I don't think it would be an issue.
It seems that people are looking for reasons why we can't rather than how it could work.
Not sure why it would take months to pack up a science department. Do they really have that much stuff?

[Epykat]

[There are three secondary schools in the vicinity - Castlebrae, Holyrood and Leith Academy (at a push, four if you really want to include Musselburgh Grammar).

OK, so for the first time, someone is posting a suggestion of how to decant. But my question is, do these institutions have the capacity (and the willingness in the case of Holy Rood and Musselburgh) to take the PHS pupils for possibly up to 2 years? Just asking…

I don't know about Leith but both Castlebrae and Holyrood are running at below capacity apparently so if we're talking approximately 500 kids per host school and Holyrood has maybe 200 spaces then they're only looking at an extra 300, same for Castlebrae. It shouldn't be down to willingness either, but compulsory. Desperate times need desperate measures so everybody would have to chip in.

[Epykat]

Leith would not have the space for additional classes, Castlebrae might, but would YOU send your son / daughter up there?

Ah! So are we maybe getting to one of the real reasons why you and probably some others think none of this will work? It's hypothetical but, yes, if it came to it and that was the offer on the table then I would have no problem sending my kids to Castlebrae. It wouldn't be a permanent situation and they might just find that if you treat people the way you would like to be treated then they might just not live up to their fabricated personas. Doesn't do any harm to forge connections in the right places. In fact, it can be positively essential if you're ever in a sticky situation in a nightclub one Friday night.

You need all facilities for all courses that PHS offer onsite at all times

Absolutely, that's why we'd be sending them to existing schools..,

bussing schoolchildren around Edinburgh is NOT anoption

Why would we be bussing them anywhere? We don't bus them to school just now so they can make their own way there and back just as they do now. These aren't Nursery kids we're talking about Sceptic, they're at High School. I would fully expect my kids to get back and forward to school under their own steam at that age.

It would seem some people do not realise half the activities associated with a school.

I totally agree!

[SoupDragon]

Just for info, if my memory is correct, the capacity at Leith Academy is 950
I think the current school roll is not that far off that number
I also know that a few years ago a couple of classes were being taught in huts at the edge of the car park.

[seanie]

There not going to refurbish the tower. The tower is fundamentally flawed and isn't fit for purpose. The need to replace the school gas only partly been driven by the condition. It's also been driven by underlying problems with the nature of the building.

[Epykat]

There not going to refurbish the tower. The tower is fundamentally flawed and isn't fit for purpose. The need to replace the school gas only partly been driven by the condition. It's also been driven by underlying problems with the nature of the building.

You know this for certain Sean? What purpose exactly is it not fit for? What's wrong with the gas that can't be fixed?

The only REAL reason why a refurb would be totally off the table was if the actual structure of the tower was unstable. Was this looked into at any time?

[seanie]

A refurb will be off the table because the building form is fundamentally ill suited to a school. It certainly wouldn't be a cheap or cost effective option, even before you consider the cost and educational disruption of an extended decant. At the end of it you'd still have a inadequate building compromised be being on a site that's too small, as well as severely restructing the prospects for the rebuild or extension of St John's. The Education department won't be keen, the Finance department won't be keen, staff won't be keen, parents won't be keen. It's therefore unlikely that Cllrs will be keen.

I worked a fair bit in the educational sector, albeit more primary than secondary, and new build was almost always preferred because refurbishment rarely stacked up. And that was with existing buildings that weren't tower blocks.

[Betty Windsor]

A refurb will be off the table because the building form is fundamentally ill suited to a school. It certainly wouldn't be a cheap or cost effective option, even before you consider the cost and educational disruption of an extended decant. At the end of it you'd still have a inadequate building compromised be being on a site that's too small, as well as severely restructing the prospects for the rebuild or extension of St John's. The Education department won't be keen, the Finance department won't be keen, staff won't be keen, parents won't be keen. It's therefore unlikely that Cllrs will be keen.

I worked a fair bit in the educational sector, albeit more primary than secondary, and new build was almost always preferred because refurbishment rarely stacked up. And that was with existing buildings that weren't tower blocks.

I didn't realise this option had been looked into at such great length already. Maybe you could point us to where we can get these reports/findings etc and let us make an informed opinion.
Also not sure why you would end up with an "inadequate" building when it has been perfectly adequate for the thousands of pupils who have attended over the last 50 years.

[Epykat]

....new build was almost always preferred because refurbishment rarely stacked up. And that was with existing buildings that weren't tower blocks.

Fair enough, but when you're back's against the wall and rebuild isn't possible then what? Refurb has to be the next best option.

I still don't get where this 'fundamentally ill suited to a school'. It's been a successful school for 50 years.

[seanie]

It's largely down to circulation, which in turn restricts the flexibility of the layout. If you had no other option at all you might go down that route, but we haven't bottomed out what options there are.

[gillian]

"Also not sure why you would end up with an "inadequate" building when it has been perfectly adequate for the thousands of pupils who have attended over the last 50 years"

If it were perfectly adequate, would we be looking at replacing it? Would PPAG be saying that they agreed that a new school was needed?
You can be against the school being on the park, you can think that it should be rebuilt on site, you can think that it can be re built on site with a cheeky wee bit of the Figgy used to provide the space. You could also think that it could be refurbished and added to. But surely Betty, even you can't really think that the building is adequate

[Betty Windsor]

"Also not sure why you would end up with an "inadequate" building when it has been perfectly adequate for the thousands of pupils who have attended over the last 50 years"

If it were perfectly adequate, would we be looking at replacing it? Would PPAG be saying that they agreed that a new school was needed?
You can be against the school being on the park, you can think that it should be rebuilt on site, you can think that it can be re built on site with a cheeky wee bit of the Figgy used to provide the space. You could also think that it could be refurbished and added to. But surely Betty, even you can't really think that the building is adequate

Apart from the fact that 3 out of 4 lifts don't work I'm not aware of any other major issue with the building. I attended the school many years ago when they were, and I can assure you the building was more than adequate. What aspect of the building do you find inadequate?
My son attends now and has never complained of any issue about the building. In fact when he first arrived at the school he thought it was very high tech.
It's all relative I suppose.

[Porty]

There's been quite a few condition reports, carried out by experts. They understand about school design and fit for purposeness. i think they are better placed to opine than any school staff member. As far as I am aware, theres' only two people proposing a refurb, Epykat,Arche Burns and maybe Betty, between them there's not a lot of expertise or knowledge. Best just to leave it the experts. Ignorance may be bliss but its not a good foundation for a decent plan.

[Epykat]

The fabric of the building isn't adequate now I agree, but the layout is totally adequate as has been proved in the past 50 years. The 'circulation' problem is due to the lift situation.

[Epykat]

As far as I am aware, theres' only two people proposing a refurb, Epykat,Arche Burns and maybe Betty

I think you'll find that adds up to three. Maybe you're right, the school may well have been inadequate in your case.

[seanie]

The layout and circulation is poor, and scope for improving that very limited. Refurbishment will be the option of last resort, so I wouldn't get your hopes up just yet.

[Epykat]

There's been quite a few condition reports, carried out by experts.

What did they say?

[seanie]

I think you'll find that adds up to three. Maybe you're right, the school may well have been inadequate in your case.

Two for certain and a conditional third, hence the use of the word 'maybe'.

[Epykat]

The layout and circulation is poor, and scope for improving that very limited. Refurbishment will be the option of last resort, so I wouldn't get your hopes up just yet.

My hopes aren't anywhere Sean since it matters not a jot to me what happens really, but I would rather the kids had something rather than nothing.

[seanie]

[Scoop]

A refurb will be off the table because the building form is fundamentally ill suited to a school. It certainly wouldn't be a cheap or cost effective option, even before you consider the cost and educational disruption of an extended decant. At the end of it you'd still have a inadequate building compromised be being on a site that's too small, as well as severely restructing the prospects for the rebuild or extension of St John's. The Education department won't be keen, the Finance department won't be keen, staff won't be keen, parents won't be keen. It's therefore unlikely that Cllrs will be keen.

I worked a fair bit in the educational sector, albeit more primary than secondary, and new build was almost always preferred because refurbishment rarely stacked up. And that was with existing buildings that weren't tower blocks.

Stevenson College, Napier Uni. Oh, and Appleton Tower. Didn't it just get a major refub?

[tufty]

Re change of catchment.
Have you asked the shopkeepers on the High Street how they feel about that as an idea?
I've just driven through Craigmillar with my daughter and we discussed going for lunch, she commented on the lack of shops compared to Portobello and it made us do a quick calculation.

1200 pupils, if half went out for lunch that would be 600 spending about £2.50. £1500 a day spent on the High street during term time, and my daughter said more than half go out.

The change suggested would reduce that to 400, that's £500 less spent a day on lunch.

As there are 190 school days a year that is £95000 less spent in Portobello every year. That's conservative as parents and teachers will also spend money in the area. Coffee shops, restaurants and gift shops would see a drop in trade. I don't live in the heart of Portobello but I started shopping there a lot more after my kids joined the school, I only saw the Spanish place after dropping my daughter off at a friends and we've been there often now, money I would have spent somewhere else.
I thought the new school was for the good of the Portobello. Craigmillar would make a gain, but at the moment they don't have as many little shops, so the reality would be Portobello would see shop closures.

Splitting the catchment has more to it than suggested by some people, so lets talk about solutions that are good for the community. Like the park build was going to be.

[gillian]

Betty, I base my opinion that the building is not adequate on the experts. I read, listen, take in and come to conclusions based on their assessments and expertise. I also listen to what the pupils and teachers say and come to conclusions based on their experiences. I read, listen and take in what the people who oppose the school being built on the park say about the adequacy of the building and come to conclusions.
Then and only then I form an opinion on whether the building is adequate to provide the necessary accommodation for the education of 1400 pupils in the 21st century.

[Sceptic]

To those who doubt me, I have packed up and unpacked a science department, that is why I know how long it takes, if you have any questions, ask Bill Nicolson at PHS how long it might take. Busing children, can you imagine 1400 pupils on Lothian Buses, the congestion, being unable to get on YOUR bus beacause it is full?
In addition 100 pupils here, 200 there, who is in charge of them? All facilities, yopu will need additional teachers in all the schools concerned, you may transfer teachers from PHS, but are they in the right place at the right time? Do you have pupils in one place for English and another for History /Geography?
They got away with it at St Thomas of Aquins because a) they had empty building comparitively near and b) the catchment area was the South and East of Edinburgh anyway so they had to travel to school in any case.
Portobello does not have buildings nearby and there is the additional transport problem.

Sorry, decanting on this scale is not an option

[Betty Windsor]

Betty, I base my opinion that the building is not adequate on the experts. I read, listen, take in and come to conclusions based on their assessments and expertise. I also listen to what the pupils and teachers say and come to conclusions based on their experiences. I read, listen and take in what the people who oppose the school being built on the park say about the adequacy of the building and come to conclusions.
Then and only then I form an opinion on whether the building is adequate to provide the necessary accommodation for the education of 1400 pupils in the 21st century.

Rosa, I am genuinely interested to know where I can access all this information provided by these experts. I would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction.
I too have listened to teachers and pupils (different ones apparently). The feedback I got from the few teachers (and ex-teachers)I have spoken to, is that the classrooms in the proposed school in the park were smaller with less storage space and the design was "uninspiring". This is perhaps to be expected from a new build.
As far as adequacy and "fit for purpose", maybe I am misunderstanding these terms but whether we like it or not the school IS actually serving its purpose ie educating 1300+ kids.
Clearly the place needs fixing up. I do find it odd that we don't refurb instead of pulling down if the basic structure is sound. We wouldn't do this with our own homes as the cost would be prohibitive. Why then do we not even consider it for public buildings?

[portygeoff]

Re Only those born in Porty being allowed to have a view.

Dear Betty, the statement was discussed on the other forum. I was actually named and when I said this was outrageous and would be considered racist if I was black I was threatened with with the police and their partner had a go at me in a local pub for challenging this view. Very nasty. I did highlight this on the PPAG FB site but it was deleted and I was blocked!

So Geoff you had an altercation with someone who supports the PPAG campaign. It's a bit disingenuous to make out that is PPAG's view.

Maybe it's time to ask the kids what they think of a refurb. We could ask them what they like about the tower as well. Some of their answers might surprise you.

Betty, i never said it was PPAGs view, I said it was the view of some members of PPAG. (Their name is on the PPAG mins posted on this site so I guess it is fair to say that). Also, I did not have an altercation, a member of PPAG posted publicly the statement, (not directed at me but did mention my name). The 'altercation' came later when I complained as did the banning of myself from the PPAG FB site. Nice to see you condemn the offensive statement, not one member of PPAG did at the time though.

[portygeoff]

...

bussing schoolchildren around Edinburgh is NOT anoption

Why would we be bussing them anywhere? We don't bus them to school just now so they can make their own way there and back just as they do now. These aren't Nursery kids we're talking about Sceptic, they're at High School. I would fully expect my kids to get back and forward to school under their own steam at that age...

Epykat, re your edited quote above; strange you should post this if you were involved in education. There is a legal requirement for the council to provide transport if children live a certain distance from their school. Whilst you may be able to afford to send kids to schools around Edinburgh many parents of PHS kids cannot. Whilst I am sure that you did not intend to, unfortunately this 'I'm all right Jack' and stuff the rest attitude is how many of the Portobello community see the PPAG activists.

(Edited, got the name wrong).

[Epykat]

...

bussing schoolchildren around Edinburgh is NOT anoption

Why would we be bussing them anywhere? We don't bus them to school just now so they can make their own way there and back just as they do now. These aren't Nursery kids we're talking about Sceptic, they're at High School. I would fully expect my kids to get back and forward to school under their own steam at that age...

Betty re your edited quote above; strange you should post this if you were involved in education. There is a legal requirement for the council to provide transport if children live a certain distance from their school. Whilst you may be able to afford to send kids to schools around Edinburgh many parents of PHS kids cannot. Whilst I am sure that you did not intend to, unfortunately this 'I'm all right Jack' and stuff the rest attitude is how many of the Portobello community see the PPAG activists.

I think the requirement is 3 miles Geoff, anything under that and they make their own way there which is why, if possible, they would theoretically go to the one nearest them. I think, but I'm not sure, that they're given bus passes to use public transport or, if disabled or unable to use public transport they get a taxi.

The three schools mentioned aren't 'all over Edinburgh' , they're a short distance from the current school and judging by the amount of cars outside the school gates of a day a lot of the kids travel by car.

I won't go into how many of the Portobello community see the PFANS activists because that would be petty. (it was my quote, not Betty's)

[wangi]

I do find it odd that we don't refurb instead of pulling down if the basic structure is sound. We wouldn't do this with our own homes as the cost would be prohibitive. Why then do we not even consider it for public buildings?

Right. But you've got things the wrong way round. It is much more cost effective to demolish & replace old(er) buildings than to significantly refurb. That's why we have planing laws to prevent that when the building is worth preserving.

L/

[Betty Windsor]

I do find it odd that we don't refurb instead of pulling down if the basic structure is sound. We wouldn't do this with our own homes as the cost would be prohibitive. Why then do we not even consider it for public buildings?

Right. But you've got things the wrong way round. It is much more cost effective to demolish & replace old(er) buildings than to significantly refurb. That's why we have planing laws to prevent that when the building is worth preserving.

L/

Fair enough Wangi but things not so straightforward here. Also who decides the building is worth preserving? The council?