New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal

[Franck]

There is also the problem of the many people who have fallen for the PPAG line that there are plenty of suitable alternatives. They have yet to name a single one and they have had 7 years to not do so.

What's the CG status of The Quarry?How about an upper and lower school, split between the current site and The Quarry?Years 1/2/3 at the Quarry, 4/5/6 at the current site?
Should allow for reasonable schools on both sites, good sports facilites ( the 'lower' school could use Leith Nautical College?)

[Porty]

Now on the face of it that does have some merit. After all, the school operated on two seperate sites for about 20 years between '64 and '84?. Much closer together of course.

I don't think the quarry featured in the feasibiity studies.

My gut feel is that it is too small an area and too narrow for a sizeable school,but its purely a gut feel.

Don't know about the CG status or the suitability of the soil, it used to be a quarry and there is quite a bit of subsidence in the vicinity. Is it as big as the St John's site?

As an aside- I believe the Figgate Park is Common Good land- I wonder of the current PHS is built on CG?

[Epykat]

It's getting to the point where some PFANS contributors are doing harm to their own cause imo.A legal route was followed, happily by PFANS on the basis they were confident they would succeed.Suggestions of where to buy discounted champers a day or two prior to the decision kinda reeked of smugness.And whereas I'm no fan of PPAG, I can't recall any similar thing from them in the lead up.

[lg1726]

Don't know about the CG status or the suitability of the soil, it used to be a quarry and there is quite a bit of subsidence in the vicinity

I personally would worry about the subsidence issue on the Quarry! I walk the dogs there every day, most days twice and the dips and hillocks never seem to be in the same places on consecutive occasions! Lost one of the dogs from sight yesterday, she was standing in a dip so tall that she was totally out of view and another dog walker and i were just commenting that it seemed that particular dip seemed much deeper than before!! Often think it a bit like a Dr Who scenario where we will just disappear into the earth one day. Mind you, a parent on some days, that could be mighty appealing!!!

[wangi]

Should allow for reasonable schools on both sites, good sports facilites ( the 'lower' school could use Leith Nautical College?)

Are you making the jump that a possible merger of Jewel & Esk, Telford and Stevenson would result in the Jewel campus on Milton Rd surplus to requirements?

[seanie]

Joppa Quarry’s about 2.3Ha. The location in catchment isn’t great but it’s not too bad, however access is poor. Can’t imagine the Planners being keen but there might be a way of making it acceptable. You lose economies of scale so it’ll be more expensive than a single school, and you’re still likely to have decant costs although these could be reduced. The school and the Education department are likely to be resistant to a split site as they’re very problematic from an operational point of view, and keeping the existing PHS also restricts the opportunities for St John’s in the longer run. Again you’re starting from scratch so 4-5 years minimum.

[Franck]

Should allow for reasonable schools on both sites, good sports facilites ( the 'lower' school could use Leith Nautical College?)

Are you making the jump that a possible merger of Jewel & Esk, Telford and Stevenson would result in the Jewel campus on Milton Rd surplus to requirements?

No.

Only suggesting alternatives that could work.I maybe wasn't clear enough, but I was only meaning sporting facilities could be 'borrowed/let/rented' by the lower school from Leith Nautical to avoid the lower school having to travel further than necessary.

It might not be a go-er, but instead of only considering the park, which right now, is an impossible option, I'm offering alternatives, as requested by PFANS on this very thread.

[fresian]

Quarry Park would surely be subject to the same objections ( If these are indeed the "real" reason for objections) i.e loss of green space.

[gillian]

The Quarry park isn't green space?

[Bob Jefferson]

I spent the morning in the City Archive, reading the Edinburgh Extension Act, 1896. This may be of significance:

"74. The Corporation shall within seven years from the passing of this Act acquire dedicate and thereafter maintain for public use a public park or recreation ground in some situation convenient for the inhabitants of the present burgh of Portobello and under such regulations as the Corporation may from time to time make."

and this from the Minutes of Edinburgh Council:

"36. Read the following Report by the Lord Provost's Committee:-

Edinburgh, 20th July 1898. - At a meeting of the Sub-Committee of the Lord Provost's Committee, on motion by Judge Grieve, on the subject of the acquisition of a Public Park for Portobello. - Present : - Judge Grieve, Treasurer McCrae, Judges Dunlop, Gulland and Gray, Councillors Telfer, Cranston, Nichol and Forbes Mackay.

The Sub-Committee have carefully considered the provision of a Public Park at Portobello. They have through the Town Clerk been in communication with the Agents of several proprietors of lands in the District. They have carefully considered the offers made and they are of opinion that a field extending to 56 acres or thereby on the estate of Sir James Miller of Manderston and situated to the south of the Railway Station would be a most suitable one for a Public Park. It can be acquired at the price of £25,000, and the Sub-Committee recommend that the Town Clerk should be authorised to accept the offer and to adjust the conditions of sale."

(Signed) 'DAVID GRIEVE, C.'

Eo die. - The Lord Provost's Committee approve of their Sub-Committee's Report and beg to recommend the Magistrates and Council in terms thereof.

(Signed) 'MITCHELL THOMSON, Lord Provost'

The Magistrates and Council approved of the foregoing Report and resolved and authorized as therein recommended.

Does any of this help to clarify the CG status of Portobello Park? Sounds like a question for Andy Wightman tomorrow evening.

[Mark Cameron]

Let's leave aside whether Quarry park is CG or not - first of it's a park that is used way more than Portobello Park.

Even putting that to one side let's say it was legally possible to build a 'less than ideal' school on a smaller piece of green space. Could we not have the recreational facilities needed for our new school sited on Porty Park?

The way the deeds read to me the park needs to be used for recreational purposes for the common good - am I misinterpreting that?

So open the school recreational facilities up to the rest of the community and replace the kids park in Quarry park on Porty park and we'd all be happy - right?

PPAG would surely have to rebrand QPAG to campaign to retain Portobello's green space - surely they would need to or it would make their claims of protectors of green space to look quite ridiculous.

[Scoop]

Should allow for reasonable schools on both sites, good sports facilites ( the 'lower' school could use Leith Nautical College?)

Are you making the jump that a possible merger of Jewel & Esk, Telford and Stevenson would result in the Jewel campus on Milton Rd surplus to requirements?

This has already happened. Collectively known as Edinburgh College as from the start of this term.

[lg1726]

PPAG would surely have to rebrand QPAG to campaign to retain Portobello's green space - surely they would need to or it would make their claims of protectors of green space to look quite ridiculous.

I live beside Quarry Park and IMHO, I doubt that those of us in the vicinity would be quite as opposed as we have seen from those in the vicinity of Porty Park - PPAG.

However, my main concern would be ingress and egress to such a confined space; that and the undulating landscape! I have to say that if PHS were sited there and as stated previously it is a well used space, I can can see ourselves and the other residents gaining vicarious benefits from the presence of the school. Improved road and pedestrian access, parking restrictions to facilitate access, improved security to the surrounding area, very close proximity to perceived community facilities!!

We lived beside Aberdeen Grammar School before moving here and it had more advantages than disadvantages! But, I'm not too sure just how suitable it would be - way less objection from the nearby residents though!!!

[Gillmck]

I'm a new contributor, so please be kind, especially if I am inadvertently asking a question which has already been asked and fully answered. (I have read the posts fairly extensively, but may have missed something!)

I have benefited from the recent recap of the various potential sites that were considered, so thanks for the summary & reminder. In my view, and as unfortunate as it may be, Portobello Park is certainly the most suitable site.

However, can I ask what talk / plans there have been concerning the use of the current school site when it is eventually decommissioned? It would seem to me to pose an opportunity to create a new, and perhaps innovative, 'green space' for the community of Portobello. I understand that in most cases, a Council would wish to recoup costs by using / selling such a site wholly for housing, but perhaps there are alternatives? How about a showcase eco-apartment complex with adjoining allotments and public garden? (Some of these allotments could be kept for both primary & secondary school use, keeping a link with the site's past.)

Any architects or planners out there with creative ideas?

An innovative 'green' use for the current site could offset any environmental harm from the loss of some of Portobello Park's green space, and even form a new and positive Portobello 'campaign' that the majority of people in the community could rally around.

Gillian McKinnon

[Mark Cameron]

LG - I too live 2 minutes from QP and would not object if it was proved to be a viable site plus had the scope to cope with the projected growth in schoool pupil numbers in Portobello catchment.

I do however feel we'd be accepting a lesser option.

Gillian - I think the money generated from the sale of the current school site will go towards the next schools on the list in need to rebuilding. So this decision not only affects the children and families in Portobello.

[wangi]

And lets not forget St John's is "next on the list" for replacement. Use of PHS site may be key there.

[seanie]

There was no final decision on what would happen to the existing PHS site should the school move. The Education Department's view was that it should be sold for further investment in the 'Wave 3' schools, the next of which in line would be St John's. A recommendation to that effect was put to Council but a decison was deferred. There was also the issue of St John's being on a very cramped site, and the departmental view would favour a re-build rather than a refurbishment and extension. In such circumstances you'd pinch a bit of the PHS site for St John's and sell the remaining.

However, given the current situation, such considerations may be entirely academic.

[lg1726]

LG - I too live 2 minutes from QP and would not object if it was proved to be a viable site plus had the scope to cope with the projected growth in schoool pupil numbers in Portobello catchment.

Well look at that mcdryburn - the power of the interweb thingy! We are clearly neighbours as I too am about 2 minutes away, on a slow walk!

I completely agree with you that it would be a lesser school. However, I was trying to put very practical reasons for its unsuitability, lest anyone suggest for a minute that those of us in vicinity of QP would be opposed for NIMBY reasons!!!

[Bob Jefferson]

Welcome Gillian, it's always good to have a new contributor to the debate. One or two of the posters here do have a caustic sense of humour but that's part of the rough and tumble of internet discussion, which is admittedly not for the easily-offended. But in reality, most of them are just big pussycats, believe me.

The Council has a duty to spend their money wisely and with so many schools, including St John's, waiting to be re-built or refurbished, it would be difficult to put together an argument for not selling the land to the highest bidder. Any receipt would be ring-fenced. But no decision has been taken yet so they could be lobbied to do as you suggest.

[commander114]

removed

[seanie]

I'll give you the e-mail address for Billy MacIntyre, and you can outline your plans to him.

He could probably do with a chuckle.

[seanie]

Personally I've spent a fair bit of time thinking through alternatives. I think that the comparative advantages of the park are so strong that options to proceed with that have to be looked at, and if there's a realistic route it should be pursued. At the same time we need to look at alternatives. The depressing thing is that the alternatives appear to be grim.

You never know though, there might be half-decent idea out there that's not yet been tapped.

[Bob Jefferson]

Scoop, from around 400 respondents so far on the online poll, 356 have indicated that Portobello Park is their preferred site. I'm sure they will be delighted to know that you consider them to be 'spoiled brats'.

Where do you think the new school should be built, if not on Portobello Park?

[Sceptic]

Can we stop resorting to name calling, please?
I know I am as guilty as anyone for resorting it, but realise it gets us nowhere.
Building a school on stilts over rail lines may seem to have merit, but has anyone experience of noise and vibration in such a building? Was there a swimming pool or playing fields in the mix. The park site would seem to be the only one to offer a large school such as PHS the resources it needs for a modern, up to date curriculum. Putting the school up to Craigmillar takes it outwith Portobello altogether and thus it would deny the Portobello Community of much used facilities for after school sport and learning opportunities.
The existing site is much too small as the tower would require demolishing, rebuilding the tower would increase costs to a new level which would put off some, if not all, developers off completely.
It would seem that some people are not interested in the future of PHS for whatever reasons, suspicion is that they use private schools, do not have children of school age or whatever.This is an issue that should involve everyone and everyone should be interested in their local school.
Yes, the existing school was built in the wrong place years ago, but can we avoid making the same mistake again.

[seanie]

Judges aren't infallible, and they're not the only ones who get to decide what is and isn't legal.

[regent]

why are there no council officials coming to the meeting tomorrow?

[regent]

would have thought that since they were the folk that came up with the original sites and ideas where the school could go, their input and availability to answer questions from the public would be essential.

[Epykat]

would have thought that since they were the folk that came up with the original sites and ideas where the school could go, their input and availability to answer questions from the public would be essential.

I agree Regent. They should be there to answer questions since the whole mess has essentially been caused by them.

[regent]

whether they caused the mess or not it would seem to me that they are essential to any forward planning.

[seanie]

A week and a half after the judgement they're unlikely to be in a position to say anything more than that they're taking further legal advice and considering what options there are.

[regent]

So is tomorrow to discuss the community trust idea?

[Bob Jefferson]

I think the facilitators (local politicians) are there to listen and feedback what the community has to say and to explain, to the best of their ability, the various options, including the community trust idea.

[regent]

thought there had already been a meeting with them at the library

[Bob Jefferson]

No, PFANS held a meeting at the library, which Kenny McAskill attended in an advisory capacity, but there were no other politicians there.

[regent]

seems a lot of meetings about meetings, I have 3 kids due to go to the high school in a few years and am totally astonished that a school appears no nearer now than it did when my eldest was in nursery.