New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[Franck]

I always thunk Bas was spelt Bass!

No way Jose.

Bass is either a fish,an axe or an ale.
Bas is an abbreviated form of Jim Jeffries,Davie Cameron or Neil Lennon.

[seanie]

I don't think you need to be a genius to work out that the extra 200 is to accomodate the Castlebrae kids when they close Castlebrae (it costs twice the amount to keep a child at Castlebrae). In this financial climate I believe it is inevitable and is indeed CEC's plan. Before you ask this is based on heresay and common sense - I do not have the person on tape who said or have any written evidence, sorry.
As far as the "curriculum advantages"-what does that mean? The curriculum changes constantly. What are these advantages? If you could keep it brief I'd appreciate it.

A replacement Castlebrae is integral to the future re-development of Craigmillar; it's simply on hold due to the stall in re-devleopment.

As to curriculum advantages, the larger the school the broader the curriculum you can generally offer. The original proposal in 2006 was for a 1200 capacity PHS, closer to the catchment demand but below the roll of about 1400. The school wanted to remain at 1400 and having reviewed roll projections the Department agreed to 1400 as being sufficient to manage the expected rise in catchment pupils.

[Doris]

From today's EN

Letters: Will park decision leave the city with egg on its face?

TOMORROW a recommendation to appropriate the land at Portobello Park will be considered by elected members at Edinburgh City Council.

The park is the controversial site for the proposed new Portobello High School.

The council has already appointed contractors, granted itself planning permission, gone to court over its right to build on this inalienable common good land but has not yet appropriated the land.

So either:

1. This is just a tick box exercise carried out by the council, at public cost, or:

2. It is a genuine exercise and the council runs a real risk here of having egg on its face and not being able to proceed with its own plan.

I know which one I think it is. Either way they are not presented in a good light!

Jennifer Peters, Duddingston Crescent, Edinburgh

http://www.scotsman.com/news/letters/le ... -1-2254268

[Pal of Porty]

I don't get the point of that letter - what am I missing?

[lg1726]

Seems like you are not alone in missing their point PoP -

Ghost
Wednesday, April 25, 2012 at 01:17 PM
Whoah there Porty Pilot. I am not a PPAG brother, having gone my seperate way when they put forward other parks in the area as suitable school sites. i would like to preserve porty park and unfortunately PPAG are the only game in town. I am more and more frustrated by their blunders. Mrs Peters letter is just the latest example. What on earth is she on about?

Seems like there are schisms in the PPAG band!

[Porty]

I don't get the point of that letter - what am I missing?

Not sure but; Kids at holyrood or private school, a big stone built, bay windowed house in the Park Avenue area ,a free bus pass. Hating the City Council.

Maybe if you had some of those things, you would better understand.

[Betty Windsor]

Incomers of Portobello unite! You have nothing to lose but your xenophobic neighbours. Seriously, there are some very ugly undertones to this 'incomer' stuff. And it's not confined to the internet.

You may well be right Bob, however I think it is fair to say that people who have been brought up here, generally have a different attitude to the park than people who haven't.

Some of the behaviour and things written on this forum have been very ugly indeed.

[Porty]

You may well be right Bob, however I think it is fair to say that people who have been brought up here, generally have a different attitude to the park than people who haven't.

Not true.

[Epykat]

Not true.

Not true of you or just not true?

[Betty Windsor]

I don't get the point of that letter - what am I missing?

Not sure but; Kids at holyrood or private school, a big stone built, bay windowed house in the Park Avenue area ,a free bus pass. Hating the City Council.

Maybe if you had some of those things, you would better understand.

I'm not sure what you're on about here but if you are inferring that the only losers here are the people in Park Avenue, you know that's not the case. The real losers here are the people in Magdalene and the christians who, for the most part, live in small flats with concreted back greens and no or sometimes little garden at the front. Many of the Joppa, Porty supporters of the build on the park seem to be quite happy to ignore/overlook this fact while they bang on about the "NIMBYs" in Park Avenue. I suspect they find the truth uncomfortable-after all stealing a park from the most disadvantaged group in our neighbourhood doesn't really sit well with their right on, liberal, green view of themselves.
At least you are not so hypocritical as to claim any green credentials-still don't understand why you'd prefer to lose the park over a re-build on the existing site though.

[seanie]

Well it's been explained to you often enough.

Whilst it's possible to rebuild on the existing site, there would be serious problems with that.

The existing site is too small, less than half the recommended minimum, hence the high rise design and lack of adequate sports facilities. Even if St John's moved (which they don't want to do) the site would still be to small.

Also you couldn't rebuild on site without an extended decant. Decanting 1400 pupils off-site for 2-3 years would not only be hugely disruptive, it would also be hugely expensive. It could easily exceed £8 million, round about the cost of a new two stream primary school.

To spend considerably more, only to end up with a school fundamentally compromised by being on a site that's too small, doesn't make much sense when there's an alternative that delivers better facilities, at far less cost, and with less disruption.

And the fact remains that the park is principally used by dog walkers. Kids don't use it much.

The new paths will still allow people to exercise whilst enjoying the views and the accessible all-weather pitches will be a huge improvement that local kids will enjoy.

[tufty]

You may well be right Bob, however I think it is fair to say that people who have been brought up here, generally have a different attitude to the park than people who haven't.

There were parks where I grew up.
I love the smell of cut grass, jumpers for goal posts and picnics. It's a shame that there is evidence to show that none of this happens at Portobello Park except the grass cutting. The survey and the visual proof everyday when I pass the empty space leaves little to the imagination.
PPAG are really showing themselves for what they are, NIMBYS. At this stage, after the costs and the legal judgements why else would they continue to fight? They don't care about green space, after suggesting using other parks for the school. All green spaces are equal but some are more equal than others.

As for an earlier post questioning curricular advantages and improvement, working bunsen burners, computers, sports facilities, white boards, quiet rooms, music rooms, warm safe environment and green space to relax and reflect in.

[Epykat]

As for an earlier post questioning curricular advantages and improvement, working bunsen burners, computers, sports facilities, white boards, quiet rooms, music rooms, warm safe environment and green space to relax and reflect in.

Have you ever been in the current school? It's not a mud hut with candles, they do actually have these things already.

[Betty Windsor]

There were parks where I grew up.
I love the smell of cut grass, jumpers for goal posts and picnics. It's a shame that there is evidence to show that none of this happens at Portobello Park except the grass cutting. The survey and the visual proof everyday when I pass the empty space leaves little to the imagination.
.

There seems to be some kind of collective amnesia going on here. The top of the golfie has always (in my lifetime) been used for playing football/rugby. The "survey" was done when the season had finished. The argument that the park does not get used is ridiculous. The space has now been dug up and the grass allowed to grow so even an informal kickabout is more or less out of the question.
That apart, the answer to a park not getting used is normally to make it more attractive and usable, not just build on it then use the fact that it's not being used as justification.

[tufty]

Epykat.
Not every day. My three children go there and have each told me of disrupted lessons due to failures in technology. It's well known they can't have up to date computer technology in every class, they bus to Jack Kane, the hall has no facilities for concerts and the building is cold and cramped.
There seems no point in explaining this as it seems difficult for you to understand the issues of an old outdated building for education in 2012.
I would say the teachers do an excellent job. My children are all academic so for the most part it is just the bunsen burners that trouble them. For others who may want to do computing, CDT, home economics, PE or music however, they deserve access to modern working facilities.

As for the comments from Ms Windsor, how dare she describe people as disadvantaged, based on an address.

[Porty]

Not true.

Not true of you or just not true?

Simply not true.

[wangi]

The real losers here are the people in Magdalene and the christians who, for the most part, live in small flats with concreted back greens and no or sometimes little garden at the front.

Funny, seems to be much more open green space in the Magdalenes than other areas around these parts; the Durhams in particular!

http://g.co/maps/ew6fb

And yes; I'm more than aware of the difference between higher density housing with communal areas vs bungalow land with their private front & backs.

[seanie]

The usage survey was done in the summer when casual use would be expected to be at it's height, and in line with what we can all see with our own eyes, casual use of the park by the local community is minimal. They didn't need to do a survey to find out about formal use of the pitches because it easier to simply check the records on formal use of the pitches. And low and behold, even formal use of the pitches is very limited because they're crap.

[Porty]

The real losers here are the people in Magdalene and the christians who, for the most part, live in small flats with concreted back greens and no or sometimes little garden at the front.

Funny, seems to be much more open green space in the Magdalenes than other areas around these parts; the Durhams in particular!

http://g.co/maps/ew6fb

m.jpg

The density of Council housing schemes designed in the 50's/60's was very often less than those of private developments. The Christians and Magdalene are good examples

[Snow White]

You may well be right Bob, however I think it is fair to say that people who have been brought up here, generally have a different attitude to the park than people who haven't.

What a load of xenophobic nonsense. Green space is green space, wherever you come from. Are you now spokesperson for the 'Portobello insiders' as well as the people of the Christians/Magdalene?

[gillian]

.

[tufty]

Actually it would be true to say every child over the age of nine in the Portobello catchment area is disadvantaged by PPAG.
Unless they plan to attend an out of catchment school.

[Epykat]

There seems no point in explaining this as it seems difficult for you to understand the issues of an old outdated building for education in 2012.

Tufty.
Until very recently I was there every day because I worked there every day for 9 years. It's not difficult for me to understand things since I also went there as a pupil, as did my children and I/we had a very good education, so please don't be so patronising.

When it comes to misrepresentations and exaggeration it seems that some people are doing a very good job of that regarding the current building because it suits their purposes for the building to be falling down around the ears of the pupils, for wildlife to be flying along corridors and for floors to be closed because of the weather. It's a lot of tosh.

[seanie]

The accommodation at PHS is sub-standard. It's the school in most need of replacement in the whole of Edinburgh.

Even PPAG gave up trying to pretend otherwise some time ago.

[rmolehusband]

Jean Douglas (PPAG Matriarch) suggested Rosefield Park for St John's, wonder if it was her?

Is that the owner of the B&B on Duddingston Park? Their website doesn't make a single mention of Portobello Park despite it being right on their doorstep, funny that. If you want a walk they suggest Figgate Park ('situated within one mile of our home') or the beach.

[tufty]

epykat
How can you ignore the truth? It is not patronising to express my view based on what my children tell me. You don't seem to think that failing technology and warmth are an issue to education.
There have been two incidents involving my children that only happened due to the state of repair, ones that they don't want to share.
Children are entitled to dignity, safety and the best environment we can provide for them. I'm glad you had a good education, but why should that fact stop others getting a better one.

[Doris]

From Save Porty Park Facebook page today:

There is special meeting of the community council called for by PFANS at which they want PPAG to be asked to change our website and drop the appeal. This is not competent business for the community council but the CC is obliged to hold the meeting to listen to views. This meeting will take place on Thursday 26 April at 7.30 pm in Portobello Community Centre, Adelphi Grove.

Following discussion, and on discovering that some people are feeling intimidated by the behaviour of some of the group pushing us to drop the appeal, please do not feel obliged to attend this meeting. The meeting is irrelevant, as the community council has no jurisdiction to make us change our website or to ask us to drop the appeal. Some members of the PPAG group will be in attendance to make statements on our behalf but it is a personal choice as to whether you attend or not.

[Chas]

From Save Porty Park Facebook page today:

There is special meeting of the community council called for by PFANS at which they want PPAG to be asked to change our website and drop the appeal. This is not competent business for the community council but the CC is obliged to hold the meeting to listen to views. This meeting will take place on Thursday 26 April at 7.30 pm in Portobello Community Centre, Adelphi Grove.

Following discussion, and on discovering that some people are feeling intimidated by the behaviour of some of the group pushing us to drop the appeal, please do not feel obliged to attend this meeting. The meeting is irrelevant, as the community council has no jurisdiction to make us change our website or to ask us to drop the appeal. Some members of the PPAG group will be in attendance to make statements on our behalf but it is a personal choice as to whether you attend or not.

Asking the PCC to censure PPAG may or may not be competent business for tonights meeting, but censuring the CC for taking a neutral stance in the face of overwhelming community support for the new school being built on the park is. Let's make sure the outcome is positive.

[bellybabe]

I haven't checked this thread for a few days as my OH told me it was all getting very nasty, and I wasn't too interested in that, though I can understand why people get so worked up. I have to say for once, I have been deeply offended by the implication that as someone not from round these parts, I have a different view of the park, and less right to an opinion of local education and environment than 8th generation Portobellosos...even those whose children are educated elsewhere, or who don't have children... I do in fact hail from Royston Vasey; this is true and may explain a lot - and I left. Now I live in a place I love and that my family loves, and where until now I have always felt welcome and a firm part of the community. I'm not going to let myself feel less part of the community thanks to some xenophobic nonsense from people who hold a different view from me, but I do find it deeply offensive, as well as simply nonsense. I walked up to the park on the day of the demo with a Portobello born and bred person, who told me she had never been in the park until that day. But of course she must feel differently about it from me, because of the happy accident of where our parents happened to live when we were born.

My views were perfectly acceptable despite my incomer status when they were in agreement with local campaigns; PCATS didn't reject my donations or signature or planning letters because I happen to be from Royston Vasey. My money is welcome in local businesses. Now that my view is different from that of the 100-strong "majority" of local people, it is dismissed because of geography and genetics. It is petty and ridiculous, but it is also ignorant and offensive. Disagree with me about where the school should be built if you like, but do it on the grounds of arguments on the case itself, not on my nationality.

I will be at the meeting tonight though I will arrive late. I will be there because the Community Council is supposed to reflect local views and so far it has shown no sign of representing mine, and I feel strongly about what is going on in MY community.

On another, lighter note - I am in fact afraid of the Bobalo; I learned long ago, when a "fancy a drink in the pub?" turned into selling my soul to POL and TP for some years, that he is a dangerous creature indeed!

[Pal of Porty]

....Some members of the PPAG group will be in attendance to make statements on our behalf but it is a personal choice as to whether you attend or not.

Talking about hedging your bets! Already making excuses in case they are severely outnumbered.

[wangi]

[Franck]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

[Porty]

Is that the owner of the B&B on Duddingston Park? Their website doesn't make a single mention of Portobello Park despite it being right on their doorstep, funny that. If you want a walk they suggest Figgate Park ('situated within one mile of our home') or the beach.

I don't know but you did persuade me to google. I found this from a Guest House on Duddingston Crescent, I find it quite amusing.

"Located in the Duddingston area, our family run Victorian detached guest house is close to the expanse of the Queens Park and Arthur's Seat, which offers almost country like walks within the very heart of the city. Situated on a pleasant stretch of the A1, ...... is only 10 minutes drive from the City Centre and a frequent bus service runs to and from there.


Edinburgh's excellent and convenient public bus service gives quick and easy access to the other parts of the city with a direct bus to the City Centre from the bus stop right outside the house. For those who prefer air or sporty recreational facilities, they can be found at Meadowbank Sports Stadium, the Royal Commonwealth Pool, as well as many fine golf courses."

Wonder why they are not waxing lyrical about Portobello Golf Course ? After all, its a hop, skip and jump over the pleasant A1.

[Porty]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

I don't believe it will turn nasty. As far as PPAG's view are concerned, they have been accomodated at every stage of the process and beyond.

[Franck]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

I don't believe it will turn nasty. As far as PPAG's view are concerned, they have been accomodated at every stage of the process and beyond.

They have been accommodated because legally they are entitled to do what they have done, that accommodation might not stretch to a room full of vocal opponents.