New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[Porty]

I'm so glad you joined in Paxe. Dogshitwise is a really funny word! Thanks

[seanie]

She was dismayed because she has first hand knowledge of common good land disputes and is keen for her children to go to the new school.

But what dismayed her about the land being Common Good? I'm curious because I don't think the Common Good issue has been a significant factor in influencing most people's opinions on the matter. People who were ill disposed to the proposal embraced it as another potential reason to stop it, whilst those in favour took the view that a new school was in the 'common good' so what was the problem.

[Porty]

Porty - The school on the park issue is not one that we discuss normally as we agreed some years ago to agree to disagree.

You genuinely appear to be passionate about Common Good land, your restraint is admirable, can't have been easy keeing stum for all of those years.

Did you ever come close to spilling the beans to your friend,maybe after a few drinks?

Was it tough observing her dismay manifest itself, knowing you'd been carrying the secret around? Was she annoyed you hadn't told her previoulsy or pleased you spared her at least some years of anguish- must have been a very awkward situation. I hope the friendship survived.

Anyhoo- I'm not sure where we are going with this chat about your friend? You introduced the story, what point were you trying to make?

[Makaveli]

You could knock over a child.

Bob you keep your eyes on the road - you wouldn't want this happening:-

[Bob Jefferson]

Let me assure you all, that I am a careful and courteous driver at all times. And if the reduced speed limits around the new school add a few minutes to my journey, then I shan't mind in the slightest.

[Paxetamor]

My brother was knocked down on Milton Road many years ago(he's not the one in the poster),that was back when we called it the Main Road. It seems that has now changed to being a minor road, maybe it was because I was wee that it seemed big. Although, the Golfie is now called Portobello Park and, LMFAO, the Burn is now called Magdalene Glen(divot). You couldn't make it up. Actually you can, I made up the divot bit.

I'm sure Bob is a very careful and courteous driver, there has to be one of them out there. The traffic going along Milton Road at peak times barely reaches over 5mph depending whether you're going in to or out of town, I can't see too many children, even the really thick ones, getting knocked over by one of them.

[seanie]

The only people who have ever described it as 'a minor road' are the Portobello Park Action Group.

[Porty]

My brother was knocked down on Milton Road many years ago(he's not the one in the poster),that was back when we called it the Main Road.

If not too personal, how long ago? I recall there were two PHS kids knocked down, one died, it must have been around 68'-69- going to school one morning from Magdalene.

Sean is right about the "minor road". PPAG misunderstood or deliberaely misinterpreted whatever document the reference appeared in. I'd plump for the latter, based on the fact they have a traffic/road consultant, whose repsonse to the planning application was over 20 pages long. Not sure if he designed the poster.

[tufty]

I've been following this discussion and eventually had to comment. The new school will not change the side of the road it is on, if you live to the south now or after the new school opens, you have to cross Milton Road. I drive past every morning and all the children coming out of Brunstane already cross the A1, as do all the children at Magdalene, Parsonsgreen and parts of Duddingston.
So why is this part of the arguement against a new school?

[Bob Jefferson]

My brother was knocked down on Milton Road many years ago

I'm sorry to hear that. That's something that must have had a profound and lasting effect on you. Road safety around the school is of paramount importance. Children are vulnerable, cars can wait.

[Bob Jefferson]

I've been following this discussion and eventually had to comment. The new school will not change the side of the road it is on, if you live to the south now or after the new school opens, you have to cross Milton Road. I drive past every morning and all the children coming out of Brunstane already cross the A1, as do all the children at Magdalene, Parsonsgreen and parts of Duddingston.
So why is this part of the arguement against a new school?

Yep, that's a self-evident truth though PPAG disputed it for long enough. Their approach has always been to throw as many half-baked arguments at the wall as possible, in the hope that one would stick. Even they would have to admit that this wasn't one of their better ones.

[Epykat]

Although, the Golfie is now called Portobello Park and, LMFAO, the Burn is now called Magdalene Glen(divot). You couldn't make it up. Actually you can, I made up the divot bit..

Thanks Paxetamor - that's the best laugh I've had this week

[Paxetamor]

Cheers Tufty, I was a member of the 'club' too. I didn't even realise I was forming an argument, either in part or whole. I had a look at the Council Report and now see where the minor comes in i.e. nothing to do with the size of the road. Didn't mean to rattle your cage so much that you felt you HAD to say something.

My brother's accident didn't even make the papers, he got a lift in an ambulance and some stitches though, so it wasn't all bad. It was probably classed as an M-word bump.

[seanie]

Tufty didn't refer to it as your argument, simply that it was part of the argument presented against the school. As evidenced by the flyer.

[Porty]

The dangers of increased road crossings was used as an argument by pfans bods as response to the PPAG desire to put the school on one of three parks on the magdalene side. The PPAG argue that the new school's proximity to the road is dangerous. their solution?- quadruple the number of road crossings.

[Pal of Porty]

Rather ironically, the feigned concern about traffic from PPAG led to some of their ideas being incorporated into the final submission to Planning and made the case for the school even stronger.

[linksgreen]

Hi there. This is my first post so be gentle!

As an ex-pat Porty-ite now living in Leith I'd like to offer some observations from 'afar'.

The 'golfy' was always well used when I was a kid in the 70's/80's by dog walkers and kids playing football. Saturdays and Sundays saw the 3 football pitches fully used. In the 90's it was my amateur team's home pitch. I don't believe Edinburgh can afford to lose any more green space. As someone who now enjoys Leith Links, I worry it would be the thin end of the wedge if the new Porty High School is built there.

Surely a better option would be some sort of deal with either the Powerleague and the Indoor Bowling Centre or with the occupants of the Baileyfield Industrial Estate?

With the land freed up by the demolition of the old Porty High could a shared campus of Duddingston and St John's not be agreed? This would free up Duddingston School and the football pitch (if it's still there!) attached for any land purchase needed for a new build Porty High.

Given the green initiatives being taken in Porty, it strikes me as sad that principles are being sacrificed so easily.

[seanie]

There are a number of problems with your suggestion, but a principal one is the lack of any economic reality. Have you any idea how much it would cost to buy the industrial estate AND pay the relocation costs of replacement facilities. It'd be economic insanity at the best of times, let alone now when there's goi g to be NO new capital projects for at least the next 4 years.

[Betty Windsor]

Given the green initiatives being taken in Porty, it strikes me as sad that principles are being sacrificed so easily.

Does anyone out there know what PEDAL and POD have to say about the loss of the green space? I have looked but I can't find anytihng. I'm especially surprised that PEDAL have been so quiet on this subject.

[Betty Windsor]

There are a number of problems with your suggestion, but a principal one is the lack of any economic reality. Have you any idea how much it would cost to buy the industrial estate AND pay the relocation costs of replacement facilities. It'd be economic insanity at the best of times, let alone now when there's goi g to be NO new capital projects for at least the next 4 years.

We all know too well about "financial insanity" you don't have to look further than the tram fiasco for that.
Some of us believe it's insanity to build on green space in an urban area when there are alternatives available. (albeit not ideal).
If the courts find that the council are not allowed to build on the common good land they may well have to look at Linksgreen's alternatives.

[seanie]

Given the green initiatives being taken in Porty, it strikes me as sad that principles are being sacrificed so easily.

Does anyone out there know what PEDAL and POD have to say about the loss of the green space? I have looked but I can't find anytihng. I'm especially surprised that PEDAL have been so quiet on this subject.

You've already been directed to the PEDAL statement on the matter when explaining their objection to the planning appeal, and I can't see how it would come within POD's remit.

[seanie]

If the courts find that the council are not allowed to build on the common good land they may well have to look at Linksgreen's alternatives.

No they wouldn't. They're totally unfeasible economically.

[Betty Windsor]

Given the green initiatives being taken in Porty, it strikes me as sad that principles are being sacrificed so easily.

Does anyone out there know what PEDAL and POD have to say about the loss of the green space? I have looked but I can't find anytihng. I'm especially surprised that PEDAL have been so quiet on this subject.

You've already been directed to the PEDAL statement on the matter when explaining their objection to the planning appeal, and I can't see how it would come within POD's remit.

You may well have directed me to that statement but I can't find it. Did they support the loss of green space?
Also re POD I took this from their website "We want to give a platform and profile to the many creative and talented people who stay in the area and to work towards exploring the possibilities for action - environmental, cultural, campaigning and social - that will lead to the development of our local community".
I interpreted that to mean that they would take an interest in the environment and be aware of the value to ALL of having this space.
I accept that I may have misunderstood that statement. I noticed at the "village" fair that PPAG were conspicuous by their absence. I wonder who decided to bar them. Democracy in action?

[seanie]

Bar them?

You think they were barred?

[Bob Jefferson]

I'm sure we are all happy that POD

want to give a platform and profile to the many creative and talented people who stay in the area

and I'm sure that means they will welcome the fantastic opportunities in music, art and drama that the new facilities will offer to the young people of the area, and beyond that to the community at large.

PHS already has pretty good 'green' credentials and will want to build upon that in the new school, so PEDAL should be pleased as well and excited about the opportunities that could arise to work with the school to push the green agenda.

[Porty]

If Pod or Pedal made comment it will be available on the planning portal for all to view. Not that it matters at this stage of the game.

[rmolehusband]

You may well have directed me to that statement but I can't find it.

Did you even try looking for it?

[Bob Jefferson]

Now that was funny.

[Betty Windsor]

Bar them?

You think they were barred?

Well maybe not being allowed to have a table would have been more accurate. It amounts to the same thing to me.

[seanie]

You don't make much distinction between reality and fiction either, do you?

[Betty Windsor]

You don't make much distinction between reality and fiction either, do you?

Are you saying that I have been misinformed and that they were allowed to have a table?

As for PEDAL according to their website they are "neutral" on the issue of the school on the park which beggars belief.

[rmolehusband]

Well maybe not being allowed to have a table would have been more accurate.

Surely PPAG would not want to despoil our precious green space with a table.

[rmolehusband]

As for PEDAL according to their website they are "neutral" on the issue of the school on the park which beggars belief.

Indeed, how dare they disagree with you?

[Porty]

PEDAL'S neutrality is very well explained in Jane's preamble. Not only is it credible its also commendable. The group acted democratically and expressed the diverse views of their board.

Betty are you incredulous due to PPAG failure to influence PEDAL in the way they succeeded with The Reporter and PAS?

[Betty Windsor]

"What is Transition?

The Transition model is a very simple framework that can be used pretty much anywhere to bring a community together to make it a happier, healthier and more sustainable place to live."

I got the above from Transition Scotand's website. Given the huge amount of data that is available on the health benefits of having green space how can PEDAL possibly be nuetral on this matter.
Another case of selling out principles?