New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Discussion and debate on the issues affecting Portobello
Post Reply
Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 13 Oct 2011, 21:45

Makaveli wrote:New school = new facilities = better education.

It's a simple equation.

It may be simple but there is little truth in it. I think you'll be hard pushed to find any hard evidence of that.

If the school is in as poor a condition as you say it is, then should you not be campaigning for money to be spent now for the children who are there now? Are they to put up with dire conditions so that your children don't have to? It seems to me the greatest objection to the school being re-built on the existing site is the inconvenience they would have to put up with (and the cost). Are the children currently at primary more important than the kids already at the school?
long may she rain.

User avatar
Bob Jefferson
Posts: 6212
Joined: 11 Dec 2004, 21:16
Location: Planet Porty
Contact:

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Bob Jefferson » 13 Oct 2011, 22:04

In a sense, yes. We fully realise that the school is in very poor condition, but what is the point in spending money on it when it is going to be demolished soon anyway? The Council has already had to spend millions of pounds in essential repairs over the last few years, just to keep it open. And for many parents, it means that an older child has had to put up with a sub-standard school in the hope that their sibling will benefit from a much better replacement school. Would you deny local children the opportunity of an education in a school they deserve? A school in a parkland setting with its own playing fields? A school that is surrounded by greenery instead of concrete? Shame on you.

User avatar
Porty
Posts: 8514
Joined: 08 Jun 2004, 14:30
Location: Organic Market

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Porty » 13 Oct 2011, 22:38

The school is being replaced because it is unfit for purpose. The condition of the buildings is one component. Due to the ppag court action some current pupils who may have benefitted from a new school will miss out.. So spare me the faux concern.
.....ambition makes you look pretty ugly

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 13 Oct 2011, 23:34

Preserving parks and open spaces is a winner because it doesn't need to be explained to everyday Americans.
Frank Luntz

What's a no-brainer for Americans becomes complicated when self-interest gets in the way.
long may she rain.

seanie
Posts: 2313
Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:43
Location: Brighton Place

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seanie » 14 Oct 2011, 02:29

Mmmm....

Posting Michael Jackson videos was a little underwhelming, but quoting American Faux News Pundits?

You've thrown in the towel on the coherent rational argument stakes, haven't you?

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 05:02

Betty Windsor wrote:
Makaveli wrote:New school = new facilities = better education.

It's a simple equation.

It may be simple but there is little truth in it. I think you'll be hard pushed to find any hard evidence of that.

If the school is in as poor a condition as you say it is, then should you not be campaigning for money to be spent now for the children who are there now? Are they to put up with dire conditions so that your children don't have to? It seems to me the greatest objection to the school being re-built on the existing site is the inconvenience they would have to put up with (and the cost). Are the children currently at primary more important than the kids already at the school?
Where exactly did I say that the school is in poor condition? You have just made up a quote from me which I find to be very poor form. Please retract that statement.

seanie
Posts: 2313
Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:43
Location: Brighton Place

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seanie » 14 Oct 2011, 08:34

School facing demolition in 3 years gets £2m upgrade

And money has been spent on the existing school out of necessity.

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 10:44

Makaveli wrote:
Where exactly did I say that the school is in poor condition? You have just made up a quote from me which I find to be very poor form. Please retract that statement.[/quote]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be retracting. Are you saying the school is not in that poor a condition? If not why would you want to build a new one?
I must be missing something. Is the phrase I quoted not yours?

Seanie- Michael Jackson????????
long may she rain.

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 10:54

You quoted me and then started saying 'If the school is in as poor a condition as you say it is' which looks like you are speaking directly to me.

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 16:03

I apologise if I gave the impression I was speaking to you directly. I meant "you" plural, meaning the "you" that support destroying the green space.
Presumably you think the school is not in a poor condition? Which begs the question-why support a rebuild on green space?
long may she rain.

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 16:22

There you go again presuming things. Do you not read what folk post?

And I don't support destroying green space I support the building of a new school. If the only viable way of doing that is on Porty Park then I am afraid that is what it will have to be.

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 16:39

There I go again what exactly? Pointing out the hypocrisy of your position?
long may she rain.

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 16:58

Betty Windsor wrote:There I go again what exactly? Pointing out the hypocrisy of your position?
Presuming. I did write that in my last message.

Your nae the sharpest tool in the box are you?

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 17:14

What presumptions am I making that are not true?
long may she rain.

seanie
Posts: 2313
Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:43
Location: Brighton Place

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seanie » 14 Oct 2011, 17:20

Do you understand what hypocrisy means Gillian?

User avatar
Bob Jefferson
Posts: 6212
Joined: 11 Dec 2004, 21:16
Location: Planet Porty
Contact:

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Bob Jefferson » 14 Oct 2011, 17:24

Ah, so Betty Windsor is Gillian Dunn then? Why didn't you say so Gillian? I thought you were just some mad old bint.

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 17:29

seanie wrote:Do you understand what hypocrisy means Gillian?
Are you confusing me with the person you barred from your Save Porty Park Watch Facebook page?
long may she rain.

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 17:31

Your first biggest presumption is thinking you know my opinion before I express them.

seanie
Posts: 2313
Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:43
Location: Brighton Place

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seanie » 14 Oct 2011, 17:38

Betty Windsor wrote:
seanie wrote:Do you understand what hypocrisy means Gillian?
Are you confusing me with the person you barred from your Save Porty Park Watch Facebook page?
The person who repeatedly made accusations of hypocrisy for no discernible reason?

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 17:49

Makaveli wrote:Your first biggest presumption is thinking you know my opinion before I express them.
I'm still not clear what I've presumed that isn't true. Given your support for a new school on green space I don't think it is unreasonable to conclude that you believe the school to be in a very poor condition, why else would you support such a thing?

I may not be the sharpest tool in the box but I really don't understand what your probem is here, except that I disputed the truth of your equation.

What is very clear to me is that a lot of people on this forum do not like to hear any opinion that does not match theirs.

For the record, I also support the bulding of a new school but I do not believe that building on green space in an already built up area when it is possible to rebuild on the site can be a good thing in any right minded person's eyes.
long may she rain.

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 17:51

How many times do you have to be told that a rebuild on the same site makes no economic sense and that the new school on the park is the viable alternative?

Betty Windsor
Posts: 212
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 22:43

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Betty Windsor » 14 Oct 2011, 17:59

I think this is a case of "knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing" as Oscar Wilde famously said.
long may she rain.

seashell
Posts: 491
Joined: 01 Feb 2005, 20:41

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seashell » 14 Oct 2011, 18:10

I think it is a case of Betty refusing to listen to common sense or fact. But then facts can be terribly inconvenient.
What price a continuing education for existing pupils, Betty? Where would you put them during a rebuild on a site that is too small?
The fact is there was a limited number of options. The park offered the best option. End of story.
You don't want the park built on - and that's fair enough. But sooner or later you're going to have to concede that a) the needs of the many outweight the concerns (however justified) of the few and b) you're flogging a dead donkey and holding yourself up to ridicule with your refusal to accept what is factual.

Makaveli
Posts: 386
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 09:01
Location: Brunstane

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Makaveli » 14 Oct 2011, 18:15

Well said Seashell. Summed up very well.

User avatar
Bob Jefferson
Posts: 6212
Joined: 11 Dec 2004, 21:16
Location: Planet Porty
Contact:

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Bob Jefferson » 14 Oct 2011, 18:28

I've noticed that PPAG supporters are rather keen on Wilde. If only they could find some wisdom to go with their second-hand wit.

seashell
Posts: 491
Joined: 01 Feb 2005, 20:41

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seashell » 14 Oct 2011, 18:30

Makaveli wrote:Well said Seashell. Summed up very well.
thank you kindly!

seashell
Posts: 491
Joined: 01 Feb 2005, 20:41

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seashell » 14 Oct 2011, 18:32

Bob Jefferson wrote:I've noticed that PPAG supporters are rather keen on Wilde. If only they could find some wisdom to go with their second-hand wit.
As Oscar so memorably said, we are all lying in the gutter, but some of us are looking up at the stars. Others, who shall remain nameless, find that the clouds of illogic are obscuring the view.
Let those of us who aspire to a better PHS continue looking to a brighter future.

User avatar
Epykat
Posts: 3915
Joined: 04 Dec 2003, 22:35
Location: Portobello, Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Epykat » 14 Oct 2011, 19:21

seashell wrote: ..........holding yourself up to ridicule with your refusal to accept what is factual.

Which is such mature way of dealing with people who don't agree with you.
Enough of your nonsense - get back to the Play Pen!

seashell
Posts: 491
Joined: 01 Feb 2005, 20:41

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seashell » 14 Oct 2011, 19:38

Epykat wrote:
seashell wrote: ..........holding yourself up to ridicule with your refusal to accept what is factual.

Which is such mature way of dealing with people who don't agree with you.
Since when is pointing out the truth immature?
I could say the same thing about your selective editing of my post, i.e. the points I made about any rebuild having to relocate the existing pupils and the existing site being too small for needs.
Please exercise a little more mature consideration and read things in context next time. And don't bother to try to throw stones when you are standing in your own glass house.
And why not try to be a little more consistent and berate the person who called Betty a "mad old bint" while you are at it?

seanie
Posts: 2313
Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:43
Location: Brighton Place

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seanie » 14 Oct 2011, 20:08

Epykat wrote:Which is such mature way of dealing with people who don't agree with you.
Compared to what? Accusing people of hypocrisy for no discernible reason? Criticising people for opinions that they don't hold and have never expressed? Or how about simply making stuff up?

User avatar
Puerto bella
Posts: 762
Joined: 07 Jul 2007, 22:19
Location: Planet Zog

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Puerto bella » 14 Oct 2011, 20:26

Why don't you just call each other a bunch of 'forking earth holes' and be done with it?

seashell
Posts: 491
Joined: 01 Feb 2005, 20:41

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by seashell » 14 Oct 2011, 21:10

if the cap fits and all that.
the sheer hypocricy of Epycat calling me immature is quite simply breathtaking, given her previous posts.
I fully accept that tempers run high over issues where people perceive they have a stake in things, but to ignore the facts of the matter and continue to make untrue assertions gets more than a little wearing.
Just for the record: I live in a street where a new school was build around 15 years ago, where previously there was open green space. And I don't have a child who is either at PHS or will go there. My own teen goes to North Berwick. So I have personal experience of the issues and no axes to grind, unlike some people.

seanie
Posts: 2313
Joined: 03 Feb 2006, 20:43
Location: Brighton Place

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG "Save Porty Park" on F

Post by seanie » 14 Oct 2011, 21:13

What was said to me earlier in this thread?
Epykat wrote:According to you and yours we're all stupid, dense, thick, lying NIMBYs who have no right to defend a 'dog's toilet' or dare to question how wonderful this is all going to be for the 'poor suffering children' and the WHOLE community. This is CLEARLY your opinion but not everybody's.
As it happens I have friends who are strongly opposed to the school going on the park, as well as acquaintances I admire who have strong misgivings. I don't find their reasoning convincing, but it is sincere and I don't take issue with them having a difference of opinion.

I also understand why those living close to the site may not be happy. If you're at the top of Park Avenue you're on a fairly quiet road with a view out to grass and trees. Build a school and it won't be so quiet, you will probably have more crisp packets in your front garden, and the view won't be so good. I'm not surprised that people living there are on the whole not too keen.

I also recognise that some people will not accept building on greenspace as a point of principle. Fair enough. Again I don't find that convincing since every home, hospital, school and shop, depends on having built on what was once greenspace, and homes, hospitals, schools and shops are pretty useful. So I'd think the more realistic approach would be weighing the pros of building against the cons of losing greenspace. However, that's just my view.

And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But people aren't entitled to their own facts. And as soon as anyone goes beyond expressing a simple opinion, which is beyond contestation, to attempting to JUSTIFY that opinion by reference to 'facts', then they make a claim that is itself open to scrutiny and criticism. A claim that can be measured, however imperfectly, against observable reality.

Anyone is entitled to to express their opinion. And other people (within the bounds of whatever forum they are in) are entitled to express their opinions on how silly or ill informed those opinions are. See how that whole "entitled to express an opinion" thing works?

Going back to the quote above, Epykat expressed an opinion about my opinions, and that is entirely fair. Epykat should indeed be allowed to express that opinion on my opinions.

But by the same token I should be allowed the same freedom to express my opinion that Epykat's opinions on my opinions have no factual basis on anything I have actually said, don't accord with what I do actually think, and are, in fact, simply bullshit.

User avatar
Porty
Posts: 8514
Joined: 08 Jun 2004, 14:30
Location: Organic Market

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG "Save Porty Park" on F

Post by Porty » 14 Oct 2011, 22:28

seanie wrote:
And everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But people aren't entitled to their own facts. And as soon as anyone goes beyond expressing a simple opinion, which is beyond contestation, to attempting to JUSTIFY that opinion by reference to 'facts', then they make a claim that is itself open to scrutiny and criticism. A claim that can be measured, however imperfectly, against observable reality.

.
And there is the crux. Some deal in opinion combined with fact others deal in opinion and made up "facts".

The "others" squeal like stuck pigs when their facts are challenged and proved wrong. They are then forced to take the argument to a non factual sphere, videos, quotations, what ifs and their favourire batlte ground; personal, they simply love claiming its personal. Nothing like a claim of being bullied to divert t from the real discussion!.

They would love PB's suggestion that we simply call each other arseholes and be done with it. That would make it personal. Which is why its such a very bad idea. Parity is not an outcome in this debate.

(Brilliantly put Seanie and Seashell)
.....ambition makes you look pretty ugly

User avatar
Puerto bella
Posts: 762
Joined: 07 Jul 2007, 22:19
Location: Planet Zog

Re: New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

Post by Puerto bella » 14 Oct 2011, 22:52

Very clever P if you intended that: (one of the Wiki definitions of Parity ....)

Parity (sports), an equal playing field for all participants, regardless of their economic circumstances.

Post Reply