Portobello Community Council

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 22 Sep 2010, 18:44

So, in that case, what is your take on what Porty wrote earlier?

I think the protocol is called "Declaration of Interest". The group rep should declare an interest and other members decide whether or not they can then participate in a discussion and if required a vote. If he/she or they are deemed to be too close and therefore non-objective, they are asked to sit it out.

I'm unclear as to whether this is what the code of conduct has to say on the matter, or whether this is what he feels should happen in situations where there is an obvious conflict of interest.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Sep 2010, 19:25

There is no distinction between group reps and individuals as regards duties or the code of conduct.

If either feels they have an interest or potential interest in a matter they should declare it and the members decide whether it's material or not.

But in the three and a half years I've been on the PCC I can only remember one occassion where declarations of interest were asked for and two potential interests were declared. They weren't considered an issue so the members participated fully.

Given we're a Community Council, where people must have all sorts of connections, contacts, friendships and otherwise in the community, I'd imagine declarations of potential interest could take up half the meeting if you got pernickety about it.

Should someone declare an interest in a Planning Application if they live nearby? How close is nearby?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 22 Sep 2010, 19:47

Yes, I can see that it would not be in anyone's interest to be too pernickety. However, if the CC were to hold a vote, for example, on whether or not to support the BL proposals then it would surely be farcical for the PCATS representative (or any other members who are actively campaigning against the proposals) to be allowed to take part.

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 22 Sep 2010, 20:20

Bob Jefferson wrote:Yes, I can see that it would not be in anyone's interest to be too pernickety. However, if the CC were to hold a vote, for example, on whether or not to support the BL proposals then it would surely be farcical for the PCATS representative (or any other members who are actively campaigning against the proposals) to be allowed to take part.

...and the same would apply to any other matters where a rep of a group is co-opted onto the community council. I don't know how many co-opted groups there are and who they all are? In the end if you have a group for something and a group against the same thing then they would cancel each other out and then where would we be?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Sep 2010, 20:27

I think trying to exclude people from the discussion on such a basis would be quite wrong. A PCATS rep is entirely entitled to comment on and participate in such a debate. Opposing the superstore is not a conflict of interest by any stretch of the imagination.

Post by **wangi** » 22 Sep 2010, 20:31

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point of group reps really - to keep the numbers up? If they aren't there solely to reflect the view of their group then...

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Sep 2010, 20:43

Groups may help towards a bit more diversity, at least if they're representing different types of people. And they may be a conduit to bringing particular issues and concerns to the attention of the PCC as a whole.

But at the end of the day group reps are supposed to behave inexactly th same way as individuals. Their duty is to ensure that the range of opinions within the community is fairly reflected. That probably does include the views of 'their' group, but it extends beyond that, and they have that wider duty.

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 22 Sep 2010, 21:12

seanie wrote:But if other people 'aren't fussed' then that's also an opinion that should be articulated. Otherwise everything get's rendered down into black & white and any nuance or balance goes out the window.

It's not only strong opinions that should be listened to.

People who aren't sure, are equivocal, or could go either way depending on the detail, should also be heard

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11206057

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 22 Sep 2010, 23:59

wangi wrote: If they aren't there solely to reflect the view of their group then...

Sorry to come back to this but I think it there's a very important issue here.

This is not a zero-sum game. The fact that other opinions are also expressed does not mean that you own views are somehow diminished. They may not carry equivalent weight but that should comes down to their merit, not whether other views are expressed.

Any representative on the PCC, group or otherwise, should recognise that the range of views reflecting community opinion has to be reflected, even if those conflict.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 23 Sep 2010, 08:35

I see nothing wrong with group reps and individual members strongly voicing their own opinions as PCC members but ultimately the PCC written reports/objections etc need to also reflect the views of the community. It would therefore make sense that the authors of such written responses on behalf of the PCC should not be any individual with a strong opnion either either way e.g. a PCATS campaigner should not be composing anything on a superstore and a PFANS campaigner should not be composing anything on the new PHS.

Simples

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 Sep 2010, 08:39

I'm sure I'm not alone in having difficulty in reconciling some of these things. On the one hand, all members of the community council should be taking a 'disinterested' (I think is the term you used) view. They should be seeking out and reflecting the views of the community and that balance of opinion should predominate over their own personal views. Yet, somehow it's perfectly ok for individual members to take a particular stance and to campaign on that issue, without knowing (or caring perhaps) whether that stance reflects popular opinion, and to take part in debates and votes affecting the outcome.

Can you explain it again? I obviously haven't been paying attention.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 23 Sep 2010, 12:09

seanie wrote:I think trying to exclude people from the discussion on such a basis would be quite wrong. A PCATS rep is entirely entitled to comment on and participate in such a debate. Opposing the superstore is not a conflict of interest by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree but.....those of you who have been around long enough will recall when Portobello Campaign Against the Superstore ceased being a single issue group. Suddenly they wanted to employ consultants to input on other sites in Portobello. Their Chairperson, one Stephen Hawkins, issuing a rallying call for housing that would enhance Portobello. Here's the moment it all changed:

Stephen Hawkins Portobello On-Line Fri April 7th 2006 wrote:Our Christmas update gave you the news that a new developer, BL Developments, had bought the former Scottish Power site and that they intended putting housing on it. This was good news and so far we have had a very positive response from this new developer. The PCATS committee had a meeting with Phil Myerscough, the managing director, and he has also given a short presentation to the Community Council.

However, before any plans are drawn up, the City of Edinburgh Council wants to develop a Master Plan for the west end of Portobello to encompass all of the possible development sites eg. the Pitz site. We have been promised that the community will be fully involved in this Master Plan and the Council are currently going through the process of appointing a consultant to carry out this exercise.

You will remember how much we needed our own consultants at the Public Inquiry last March to argue from the communitys point of view. The PCATS committee believe it would be beneficial to make use of our own consultant when the Master Plan is being produced. A consultant who knows planning guidance would be able to advise us better of the advantages or pitfalls of a particular proposal.

We have almost £3000 in the bank from the excellent response you made to the fund raising efforts and we think it would be good use of the money to make sure we get the developments we want in Portobello. If you have any comments for or against this use of the money then please let us know by emailing me.

Let's look forward to getting quality housing on this site that enhances Portobello

PCATS were clear; they were positioning themselves as campaigners for certain types of housing. So, when, now Councillor Hawkins, delivered the PCC statement; on BL Developments residential development in Sep '09.
He ought to have been very careful not to stray from the text. According to Phil Myerscough- it took 40 minutes to read it out. And the fact Diana Cairns was handing him notes throughout, suggests he wasn't sticking to the text.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 23 Sep 2010, 13:26

admin: moved
Will there be an agenda published in advance of the next meeting of PCC on monday of next week? Will it be available on this forum?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 23 Sep 2010, 16:10

Agendas should be circulated at least 7 days in advance of a meeting.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 23 Sep 2010, 20:09

Bob Jefferson wrote:I'm sure I'm not alone in having difficulty in reconciling some of these things. On the one hand, all members of the community council should be taking a 'disinterested' (I think is the term you used) view. They should be seeking out and reflecting the views of the community and that balance of opinion should predominate over their own personal views. Yet, somehow it's perfectly ok for individual members to take a particular stance and to campaign on that issue, without knowing (or caring perhaps) whether that stance reflects popular opinion, and to take part in debates and votes affecting the outcome.

Can you explain it again? I obviously haven't been paying attention.

It all depends what hat you're wearing when.

To put it in another context I've been closely involved in PFANS for a number of years; I've been on deputations to the council, been rep on the PCC, and also intermittent 'Chair' for want of a better description.

I'm also Chair of Towerbank School Council, that exists to represent the views of the parents and carers of children at Towerbank School & Nursery.

Now when the PAN consultation on PHS came forward there was a potential conflict. The Parent Forum were identified as key stakeholders and, as Chair of the School Council I got invited to particular meetings and get the opportunity to submit comments with the ever so marginally more exalted status of 'key stakeholder' behind me.

There may've been a temptation for the School Council, a dozen or so people, to decide amongst themselves on a response to the proposals which, I'm pretty sure, would've been overwhelmingly positive. Wearing my PFANS hat that would've been a good outcome.

But wearing my School Council hat that wasn't an option. We are meant to represent the views of the Parent Forum and so the only legitimate way forward was to consult with them and reflect their views.

So I spent £60 of my own money printing questionnaires and also set one up on our web site. I did so in the full knowledge we were unlikely to get a huge response. Not because people don't care or are apathetic, but because they're busy and their lives a filled with more important things than filling in questionnaires. Nevertheless it was important to do it on a point of principle.

It was the right and proper thing to do.

Actually 65 or so responses is pretty good. I reckon we got over 10% of households responding in some manner. And, entirely expectedly, the views were overwhelmingly positive. We could've saved a lot of bother by assuming that in the first place.

But the gathering of views, and passing all of them on, was important in and of itself.

I've maybe not expressed it very well. But what's right and proper wearing a PFANS hat is not the same as what's right and proper wearing a School Council Chair hat. And both are different again from what's right and proper wearing a PCC hat.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 23 Sep 2010, 20:30

OK, so the hardcore PCATS supporters who are CC members do their campaigning, distributing leaflets and cajoling local residents and traders into writing to the CC opposing the proposals. But at the same time, they ought to be sounding out the community by whatever means they have at their disposal to find where the balance of opinion lies. Then they go into next Monday's meeting, first removing their PCATS hats, and faithfully reflect not their own views but those of the community.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 23 Sep 2010, 21:30

Ah well, PCC hats come with their own considerations.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 23 Sep 2010, 23:45

Those considerations are not straightforward but I'd think it's worth posting this in the meantime, from the Scottish Government's guidance on Community Councils.

SECTION 2 – ROLE OF THE COMMUNITY COUNCILLOR

As a community councillor it is important that you recognise from the outset that you are required to play a role in your community. This means not simply offering your own views and opinions on local issues, or taking decisions that are based on your own self-interest.

The role of the community councillor is one that requires you to represent the views of your community, or your section of the community. In practice, this will involve discussing issues with people in the community to clarify their views and assess the strength of their feelings on different topics.

It is also a good idea to encourage people to bring issues to you so that you can take them up at community council meetings. Try to check out the facts, however, before taking matters to the community council, and if there are two sides to the story, make sure that both of them are put forward. There is little point in taking up time at meetings to discuss problems that are based simply on misunderstandings or misrepresentations of the facts.

At some point it may be that you will find some conflict between your own personal views and interests and those of the community that you are representing. If such a situation does arise, try to make sure that the views of the community take precedence. Experience shows that if the views of individuals on the community council are allowed to take priority then the community will very quickly lose confidence in the community council and its work may subsequently be devalued.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 23 Sep 2010, 23:52

And this;

SECTION 6 CONSULTING WITH YOUR LOCAL AREA

You have a responsibility to communicate with all the residents living in your community. You should do this regularly and effectively to be able to claim that you represent their views and needs, and not the personal opinions of Community Councillors. There are two parts to this duty – seeking their views and keeping them informed of your work as their elected representatives.

This is a positive duty. Fulfilling it will immensely improve the service you give to the community.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 23 Sep 2010, 23:58

And this;

You may wish to use the ASCC Best Practice guidance on Local Authority support for Community Councils

http://www.ascc.org.uk/docs/data/1/Loca ... %20CCs.pdf

Ensure your authority is giving you the support you need to fulfil your duty

Include main contact details in every piece of paper, email, etc that issues from your Community Council. Always invite contact and encourage feedback. Make this a permanent “text box” in your papers.

Whenever possible, restate the ways constituents can contact you. Make this as easy as possible for them.

Create a website, or get a section on the Local Authority website. List contact details for all Community Councillors, including pictures where possible. Show the date, time and venue of meetings, and the agenda. Include the minutes of all previous meetings.

Collate a database of e-mail addresses for constituents. Ask for permission to send them e-mail bulletins seeking their views and reporting your actions.

Display Community Council contact details in all public buildings. Include information on what you do and how you can help. Ask the Local Authority to design and print posters, flyers etc.

Secure space in any local newsletters. Publicise your work, and invite comments.

Where practicable, get space in all publications sent out by the Local Authority such as Local Authority magazines. You might do this collectively among all your Community Councils. Make sure you collaborate what is said about your Community Council in any publication.

Invite and encourage the local press to attend meetings. Issue press releases on matters of local interest. Seek training on media relations. Consider appointing a press liaison Community Councillor.

Whenever you have a change of office bearers, ask the Local Authority to send out a mailing to all local organisations, public, private and voluntary, indicating the new bearers and reinforcing the status, work and approachability of your Community Council. Do the same after every Community Council election.

Hold surgeries for the community in public venues. These could be community premises, or local supermarkets, libraries and the like. Advertise these well in advance and again closer to the time. Experiment with times, days and venues, and with the format of the surgery. Always have at least two Community Councillors present.

Create and deploy surveys at least once per year. Ask questions about the Communities perceptions of you, of their community and their quality of life. Ask what you can do to improve the community. Find out what their priorities are. Be sure to include questions on the issues that will be important to your constituents in the future even if the details are not fully known. Get the support of the Local Authority to print, distribute and collect the survey papers. The ASCC has a model survey format you can use, if you wish to do so.

Consider shorter, faster surveys on individual issues of significant local importance. The responses will be very important in helping you demonstrate how you speak for the community.

Hold public meetings (in the true sense – all meetings of Community Councils are by law open to the public) whenever there is an issue of sufficient local importance. Monitor the attendance in terms of whether it representatively reflects the community – age, sex, area of residence, overall numbers and so on.

Place suggestion boxes in prominent, busy local venues. Leave pencil and paper for ease of use. Explain these are for citizens to make comments and/or suggestions on how to tackle a local issue or generally better the community. Always respond to comments left when the person gives contact details. Regularly report comments at full Community Council meetings.

If possible, deliver flyers or leaflets door to door. This is also an excellent way for Community Councillors to get to know their constituents, and vice versa.

If there is a local community radio station, consider using it to promote the awareness and work of the Community Council.

Word of mouth and informal personal contact is a common practice, and has its place. It is the least objective method of discovering the community’s views and should not be relied upon wholly when the Community Council make important decisions.

Remember:

Always make it easy for the public to contact you

Always seek comments and opinions from the Community

Always evaluate your effectiveness or otherwise regularly by results

Never let the personal opinions of individual Community Councillors replace the views of your Community.

Always adhere to the principles of the Councillors Code of Conduct.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 24 Sep 2010, 00:05

And this;

SECTION 7 CAMPAIGNING ON THE ISSUES

Campaigning On the Issues - How a Community Council might decide which issues it will consider, and how to pursue them.

You will be presented with a large variety of issues and problems. Some will affect a single member of the community, some the entire community and beyond. Your Community Council must try its best to make a balanced decision on what issues it will tackle and how:

• Start by applying the “community benefit” test. Your actions should be directed towards securing the most positive results for the greatest number of local people, so long as the minority does not suffer in the process. When faced with a number of issues, give first and most attention to those that affect the most people and on which you can realistically have a positive effect.

• Begin by gathering information. Decisions made without information, by prejudging the issue or by making assumptions are bad for your community and your reputation. Find out the key points and then find out what local people feel about it.

• Base your Community Council’s position on the views of or benefit to the majority of citizens.

•Be honest and realistic about whether you can do something about the issue. What influence can you have on the issue and those involved? Can you secure professional advice on technical aspects that would help you make your case? Research the person/organisation you want to influence? How can you engage with them to reach the desired outcome for the Community?

•Decide what results you want. Be specific. Know why you want each of these results and exactly how they will meet the conditions above about benefit to the community.

•Figure out how to reach these objectives, and monitor your activity. Asses how you can tell when you have achieved your objectives.

•An issue does not need to have only two opposing sides. Could your Community Council be an independent mediator bringing opposing factions together?

•Avoid allowing the Community Council to become the vehicle for any campaign that is not the evident will of the majority of Community. When that is established, maintain that position, and do not let your
Community Council become the venue for constant debate about the issue’s merits. Nor should any single issue overwhelm your meetings.

•When you have determined the official position of your Community Council on an issue, you should not alter it unless there is a material change in evidence or circumstances.

•A Community Councillor who becomes publicly associated with a particular position in a way that may be seen to prejudice the Community Council on an issue must declare their interest to the Community Council and not take part in any activity associated with it.

•You may choose to appoint a special Committee to co-ordinate your action on a particular issue with appropriate delegated authority. Make sure the committee has a clear remit and set clear instructions on what it may do or not do without prior approval of the whole Community Council

.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 24 Sep 2010, 00:08

And this;

SECTION 8 REPRESENTING YOUR COMMUNITY

Communities want to see how their views are being reflected in the decisions made on their behalf by Community Councils. This can be achieved in a number of ways:

• Minutes of Community Council meetings – minutes should accurately reflect the business at a meeting and the decision that was reached. This decision should be made on the basis of known community opinion (evidenced where possible) to clearly show to both the local community and other outside bodies, such as the Local Authority, that the community have been listened to and their view(s) accurately reflected.

• Community Council meetings – this is the clearest way for Community Councils to share the known views of the community and to demonstrate to those in attendance that they are being listened to.

• Public (subject specific) meetings – where these reflect areas of local concern it demonstrates to the community that they are being listened to and consulted their concerns are being acknowledged and action taken where appropriate on their behalf

• Attendance at public sector agency meetings – such attendances should be reflected in the minutes to identify where the meetings of the Community Councillors have attended on behalf of their community. Issues/opinions expressed by the Community Councillor should be reported back to the community through the Community Councils minute.

• Newsletters/public notices - good means to engage and share information but also to gather local views and identify how local views have shaped the views/work of the Community Council.

• Membership – encourage membership from across the geographical Community Council area reflecting the make up of the community it represents

• Communication channels – a Community Council should make sure that it has the communication channels in places to pass on local opinion to decision makers. These are usually established by public sector organisations who are required to consult/engage with the community but such channels may not have been set up between local groups where the representation of local opinion is just as important. Examples of communication media include notice boards, local shops, suggestion boxes and on the internet.

• Consultation – it is important for Community Councils to represent local views through various mechanisms including consultations where possible.

• All information produced should be available as widely as possible and easily accessible. It is also important that the Community Council seeks out the most effective ways to engage with the residents. Members of the public can inform the Community Council of points which they would like to be discussed and make their views known.

• When establishing views, Community Councillors should canvass local opinion but be careful not to be perceived as orchestrating campaigns unless endorsed by the Community. Community Councils are aware that it is often only a vocal minority who make representations. The Community Council should seek to represent the views of the whole Community.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 24 Sep 2010, 11:37

Seanie- it kind of escaped me in the flak. Can I just say that the consultation work you've done on behalf of Towerbank (On PHS) and on behalf of yourself on behalf of PCC (On Waitrose) is exemplary. The simple bar chart on the Towerbank consultation is very impactful.

In both cases it could be argued that the response rate and sample size is low, however what you've done is streets ahead of anything else on offer. Well done and respect to you.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 24 Sep 2010, 11:43

Ditto that. If we ask more of you, it's because we have learned to expect more of you. Now where's that brush...

Makaveli · Post by **Makaveli** » 24 Sep 2010, 12:50

Aye have to agree with the above - only just got round to reading all that (my work blocked the links you gave) and have to say it was a great effort with the resources you had.

Well done.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 24 Sep 2010, 13:29

With his seemingly unlimited knowledge of what a community council is supposed to be doing and his ability to see all the conflicting points of view I have one question to ask. Why is Seanie not the Chairperson of PCC? Actually, I am being seroius here. I have read many of his posts on this forum and I am amazed at the detail he can provide on just about every issue. The Chairperson of PCC needs to have the ability to be impartial when required and to able to spot and deal with the people who are only interested in promoting their own agenda in PCC time. When is the next election and who will propose Seanie as Chair? His refusal of this dubious honour should not be an option.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 24 Sep 2010, 13:33

I believe the last election was in May and the office bearers, including chair, were re-elected unopposed. But Sean would certainly get my vote.

Makaveli · Post by **Makaveli** » 24 Sep 2010, 13:58

Mine too

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 24 Sep 2010, 15:11

All things being equal, Seanie would be a shoo in. I do hope the CC place high value on the consultation work he has conducted. And his solo attempt to engage with the community in an open and fair manner. I love the way he manages to convey impartiality, even when he feels strongly for or against something.

gillian · Post by **gillian** » 24 Sep 2010, 15:23

my vote too!

Franck · Post by **Franck** » 24 Sep 2010, 15:34

I dont know anything about any of the other cc members, so it would be difficult to say either way, but Seanie certainly seems to know his stuff ( excluding golf

)

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 24 Sep 2010, 15:34

Admin, could you move all this hero-worship stuff to a new 'Seanie fan club' thread please?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 24 Sep 2010, 15:39

In order to be demonstrably fair and to ensure that the diverse views amongst the community are expressed, we would really need a"Shitty Seanie" thread too.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 24 Sep 2010, 20:11

You may need a dedicated forum.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 24 Sep 2010, 21:53

The agenda.