Jack Straw loses the plot.

Eck · Post by **Eck** » 07 Jul 2009, 16:23

The Times article shows that dangerous criminals have been released prior to completing their sentence and now they have disappeared off the radar. The early release scheme is designed to relieve prison over-crowding. It seems a little strange that a murderer or rapist can be granted early release, however, an 80 year old man who cannot walk, talk or eat is not granted the early release.

Society would be better off being protected from the rapist and murderers than Ronnie Biggs. No doubt this will still not effect your thoughts on the matter. How would you feel if someone you knew was raped or murdered by someone out on bail or on license? Would you still feel that it is better that that criminal was allowed out on the streets so they could carry out their actions whilst they could have been locked up instead of Biggs? Would you still have the same opinion? There will be hundreds of prisoners in a similar position in Scottish jails, however, Biggs is just a high profile example.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 07 Jul 2009, 16:46

The Early Release Scheme designed to ease overcrowding only releases people 18 days earlier than they would be automatically. And the scheme doesn't apply to anyone on the sex offenders register or murderers.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 07 Jul 2009, 20:10

I wouldn't take issue with Ronnie Biggs being released 18 days before he was meant to be. That's still a very long time ahead in the future.

Eck wrote: Society would be better off being protected from the rapist and murderers than Ronnie Biggs. No doubt this will still not effect your thoughts on the matter.

I hope not, as i've already said; I agree with you on this. Although I'm sure biggs personal status is irrelevant to the violent criminals that are out in society.

Eck wrote: How would you feel if someone you knew was raped or murdered by someone out on bail or on license?

You presume i don't know such a person.

Eck wrote: Biggs is just a high profile example.

Nail on head. He is high profile because of the magnitude (in the eyes of the law) of the crimes he has committted and his behaviour since. He has the highest profile of any living UK prison escapee, he can't expect any favours. And you can't expect any on his behalf.

Your theory about freeing up a prison space is complete tosh. Supply of prison spaces doesn't meet demand at armed train robbers who have previously escaped prison and taken the pish for 30 odd years.

Lima · Post by **Lima** » 08 Jul 2009, 12:57

At the end of the day he is not taking up a valuable cell space that could be better utilised on a more violent criminal as he is actually in hospital and if he is going to die soon it sounds like there is not much chance of him returning to a cell any time soon.

Eck · Post by **Eck** » 08 Jul 2009, 14:51

seanie wrote:The Early Release Scheme designed to ease overcrowding only releases people 18 days earlier than they would be automatically. And the scheme doesn't apply to anyone on the sex offenders register or murderers.

Murderers and Sex Offenders are allowed out with bail conditions and licenses.

Eck · Post by **Eck** » 08 Jul 2009, 14:55

Porty wrote:

Eck wrote: How would you feel if someone you knew was raped or murdered by someone out on bail or on license?
You presume i don't know such a person.

If you did know someone like this, then surely you would have rather the offender was locked up instead of someone like Biggs?

Eck wrote: Biggs is just a high profile example.
Nail on head. He is high profile because of the magnitude (in the eyes of the law) of the crimes he has committted and his behaviour since. He has the highest profile of any living UK prison escapee, he can't expect any favours. And you can't expect any on his behalf.

No, he's a high profile example because of the media. There have been larger robberies and worse crimes committed than his.

Your theory about freeing up a prison space is complete tosh. Supply of prison spaces doesn't meet demand at armed train robbers who have previously escaped prison and taken the pish for 30 odd years.

An armed train robber... 30 odd years ago and has been crime free since. Remember it was the prison guards who were not doing their job properly that allowed him to escape in the first place.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 08 Jul 2009, 14:58

I broadly agree with eck regarding the dichotomy about who and who shouldn't be locked up. I just don't believe the biggs dilema is the prism through which the problem is best examined or illustrated. .

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 08 Jul 2009, 15:23

Eck wrote:. Remember it was the prison guards who were not doing their job properly that allowed him to escape in the first place.

Yeah right enough. And it was securicor's fault for loading the money on the train. I'm beginning to think its you that needs locking up.

ali · Post by **ali** » 08 Jul 2009, 16:20

How about letting Biggs out early thus freeing up the cell for Jack Straw?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 08 Jul 2009, 16:44

Eck wrote:Murderers and Sex Offenders are allowed out with bail conditions and licenses.

Indeed they are. But they're not eligible for the Early Release Scheme.

You're conflating different issues.

Black Mamba · Post by **Black Mamba** » 14 Jul 2009, 19:08

Porty wrote:Releasing biggs would be a kick in the teeth for the surviving relatives of the train guard who died as a result of the injuries he suffered during the robbery.

I can't see any compelling reason to justify his release.

I agree with Porty. He was jailed for life and that means no getting out before you die, which is what Life should mean. He may be ill now but he lived it up on the proceeds earlier and now he's paying the price for his crime.

Eck · Post by **Eck** » 15 Jul 2009, 03:46

Black Mamba wrote:[He was jailed for life and that means no getting out before you die, which is what Life should mean.

That's what 'life' should mean, however, in this day and time it doesn't, and as i've said before, there are hundreds of other criminals walking about that the community would be better off protected from. Making an example of a man who is no danger to anyone is ridiculous.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 15 Jul 2009, 17:09

Eck you have a perverse view of biggs and his circumstance. According to you: its solely the medias fault he has a High profile, his prison guards are solely responsible for his escape and he should be set free because he is ill.

None of the above are compelling reasons to release him.

Even if there is 500 murderers and rapists running free. Its got nout to do with biggs incarceration.

Eck · Post by **Eck** » 16 Jul 2009, 17:08

The reason that I think that he should be released- not set free, is that he is not a danger to society. Prison should be used as a place where dangerous people are placed to protect society after they have committed a crime.

I have said countless times before that Biggs could be released under bail terms and restrictions, thus still serving his sentence. Something which is done on a daily basis in the United Kingdom. I am not saying that he should be 'set free' and his sentence ended. Far from it. Biggs should still serve his time, but I don't think that it should be done in a prison. We have alternative sentences in the UK for a reason. Therefore, I believe that placing Biggs on bail with terms that he does not associate with know criminals and has to be within his home address between the times of 9pm and 7am would be ample enough. These are fairly common bail terms for offenders.

That way a repeat offender or violent offender could be placed into the prison system.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 16 Jul 2009, 17:48

If, and its a big if, there is a problem accommodating violent and or repeat crimunals that are a danger to society. And it means freeing up prison spaces. There are many lesser criminals who have served a higher proportion of their sentences, well behaved and without trying or succeeding to escape. Once they are out we could maybe consider the GTR.

Eck · Post by **Eck** » 16 Jul 2009, 20:57

Porty wrote:If, and its a big if, there is a problem accommodating violent and or repeat crimunals that are a danger to society. And it means freeing up prison spaces. There are many lesser criminals who have served a higher proportion of their sentences, well behaved and without trying or succeeding to escape. Once they are out we could maybe consider the GTR.

The majority of prisons are well over their official limit, so there clearly is a problem with housing criminals.

http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/media-c ... ng-worsens

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7518313.stm

If there wasn't then there wouldn't be cases like that off Paul Flynn as pointed out at the beginning of this thread.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 17 Jul 2009, 00:55

Eck- thanks for the links. I can't find the bits where violent and/or repeat criminals who are s risk to. Society.are not being incarcerated due to lack of space. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks.