Torture-Poll

[Maria]

You may or may not be interested in knowing that I refuse to vote on this thread.

I wasn't going to get drawn into voting on it either Mr Magnolia, but I couldn't bear to see each time I logged in, a mere two votes (at that stage) against torture.

If the terrorists want to radicalise the mainstream, then oh boy, do we have the people on POL who will happily aid them.

[Dadaist]

Amnesty want locked up

Did you hear that? It's George Orwell turning in his grave!

It was a joke.

Have you been being "inspired" by Jim Davidson's jokes again?

[Gemini]

Torture: The Dirty Business

Torture is a multinational industry – but its headquarters is in the USA.

Broadcast Channel 4 on Tuesday 1 March at 11.10pm

I have been unable to download this - therefore have no prior knowledge of the content! I suspect it will be 'not very pleasant'?



http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le8580.htm

[Porty]

Wow, now you are posting links you admit you haven't read. That explains a lot.

Have you voted Gemini?

BTW When you write your provisions required note for Scotmid do you use Bold? Lest you forget.

[foxy]

I'd also like to suggest Torture Duty, just like Jury Duty but you get to indulge yourself a bit more. What, you wanted other people to do it for you? Oh yes, the professionals. No, I think they are busy in Iraq.

Interesting idea...would proabaly have to excuse women with PMT though as they may get carried away

[Dadaist]

Why should he not have to suffer if the innocents have suffered?

You slipped up a bit there, old chap. The original thrust of Porty's argument was an inquiry as to whether we should sanction torture in order to extract information which saves lives.

You seem to have adopted and extruded this to fit your own interpretation of revenge or punishment.

Are you? Are you advocating using torture as a method of punishment?

If that is the case, it would seem strange to me if you were finding Islamic sites "disturbing" whilst simultaneously giving tacit acceptance of Saudi-style "justice". Some might call that a double-standard.

[Gemini]

Wow, now you are posting links you admit you haven't read. That explains a lot.

Well I knew I could count on you to make a meal of this Porty - so , true to form - you followed through

Have you voted Gemini?

Wouldn't you like to know

BTW When you write your provisions required note for Scotmid do you use Bold? Lest you forget.

Porty - I do exactly as you do - write it on the bag of a fag pack!

[Poppy]

Porty - I do exactly as you do - write it on the bag of a fag pack! [/b]

Not that I'm one to leap to defend Portly, but a fag pack? I don't think he'd touch one.

[foxy]

Porty - I do exactly as you do - write it on the bag of a fag pack! [/b]

Not that I'm one to leap to defend Portly, but a fag pack? I don't think he'd touch one.

What kind of fag

[Poppy]

The kind of one that I've not had for nearly 12 months - except one when I was really really really drunk in Chi wai's at the thought of Mr Poppy's departure to NZ.

[Gemini]

The kind of one that I've not had for nearly 12 months - except one when I was really really really drunk in Chi wai's at the thought of Mr Poppy's departure to NZ.

Trying very hard to kick the weed - any tips (pardon the pun)

[foxy]

Must be torture Gemini

[Zargonian]

A better form of torture would be for them to listen to my geetar playing.
They would soon start talking..........

That does seem gruesome. Would you go as far as to force him to live in a flat next to the Tides Inn for a fortnight?

Oh no, I'd never force anyone to live to close to the Tides.
The terrorist is a man after-all, not an animal.

But I'd think that listening to my frenetic twiddling and fluff notes would make anyone talk.
There is of course another form of torture that has to be considered though, that may bring more dividends.

Force the terrorist to :
Listen to a Jason Donovan video that my other half found the other day.
(It was not mine!!!) which is on constant play.


Seriously though, if a terrorist is prepared to take as many lives as he/she is determined to do. Then the methods of extracting the information out them has got to be on the same level.
If that involves pain, suffering, hardships etc.
Then so be it.

Does a terrorist consider the "Geneva Convention" or, worry about the rights of the people he / she is going to kill? Nope.

Irrespective of the terrorist being "brainwashed" or whatever methods of "priming" they have received. They must pay for their actions, and be dealt with accordingly.

Even if the information that is gleaned off them is worthless, there must be steps taken to try to stop anything else like the recent events have given us.
I've had enough of the human rights groups saying he should be treated better, good living, eating etc.

Did Ken Bigley get such treatment?

I don't think so.

It is better to try than to die.

Have I just gone off on one? If so, I'm sorry.

[Porty]

What an interesting thread. I had not expected there to be so many people prepared to Vote nor for it be even.

It seems that we split into 3 camps.

Yes, who, in the case of this Terrorist and the prevailing circumstances, would be prepared to Torture with an end to protecting human lives.

No, because torture doesn't work. (although they cannot guarantee that it won't work)

No,as presumably the civil and human rights of the intended torture victim are a higher priority than the opportunity to prevent further humans being murdered.

[Dadaist]

What an interesting thread. I had not expected there to be so many people prepared to Vote nor for it be even.

It seems that we split into 3 camps.

Yes, who, in the case of this Terrorist and the prevailing circumstances, would be prepared to Torture with an end to protecting human lives.

No, because torture doesn't work. (although they cannot guarantee that it won't work)

No,as presumably the civil and human rights of the intended torture victim are a higher priority than the opportunity to prevent further humans being murdered.

I broadly agree with your analysis, but I think that in making a summary like that you have to adopt an impartial tone - you lose credibility here because you make statements about the "Yes" and "No" camps which are themselves opinions.

That your initial question was of very narrow scope is fine - it's been an interesting debate.

For example, you state "they cannot guarantee that it won't work" which rings alarm bells for me because of the double negative. A clever device, sure, but to me it seems like another justification from a "Yes" perspective - or at least an argument against "No" - in that by proposing something new like torture, one would expect the main thrust of the proposition's debate to be exactly how and why it *would* work, not simply an immediate demand for counter-arguments as to why it *might* not.

I would not say that those who answered split into 3 camps - in terms of the number of options, you've already forced us into only 2.

But with respect for your analysis and opinion, I would say that the "No" camp, if you must split it into 2, would be

"No, because they feel that the evidence obtained from torture can be unreliable"

and

"No, from a legal and human rights perspective"

and also for the "Yes" camp state

"Yes, who, in the case of this Terrorist and the prevailing circumstances, would be prepared to Torture"

I think it goes without saying that protecting human lives, that is our own and each other's, is a basic human instinct.

[Porty]

Feedback appreciated and whilst I differ on small details no real issues, thanks.

[Dadaist]

Now that the POL torture group have had the chance to digest the fact that Menezes was shot for no other reason than being mis-identified, I would like to know how many of them still back a policy of torturing terrorist suspects, and what percentage of wrongful arrest and torture they would see as being acceptable if it helped achieve Porty's hypothetical Grail of information which saved lives?

In 1974 we had the Prevention Of Terrorism act - and during its first 4 months 489 people were detained under the Act, with only 16 of these later being charged with an offence.

Am I correct, therefore, that the POL torture group think that (if the above figure is correct and can be used in our example) it's ok to torture 100 people if it turns out that 3 of them are terrorists?

Maybe it would be better to just shoot them in the back of the head - that way we could avoid any pesky Birmingham Six or Guildford Four repetitions. Such a ballyhoo, what!

Can a representative of the torture group also answer my previous question, which has remained unanswered, with regards to building on the experience of torture regimes gone by, especially Nazi Germany.

Thanks for your time - see you in the dungeon chaps.

[Porty]

Dada, could you knock up a Red Herring argument card?

[Dadaist]

Dada, could you knock up a Red Herring argument card?

Temporary shelves are "knocked up". Limited edition collectible argument cards are manufactured.

You should also have noticed that the motif of the initial set of cards was "War", not "Fish".

Whilst the War cards were coloured in using the multi-tipped colouring-in pen from the kid's pack in a Frankie & Benny restaurant, and issued in a 25 pack, the limited set which confronts The Porty Enigma will make use of my Pilot silver and gold marker pens.

In the interim period, should you require a red herring, I suggest recourse to Rick Stein's "Food Heroes" where the port of Lowestoft provided a fascinating backdrop to the subject of fish preservation.

[xxxx]

A great story for torture fans everywhere here

[ali]

A great story for torture fans everywhere here

I read this earlier in the paper and felt sick.

torture, id cards, rendition, 3 months detention without charge - they've all gone mad.

[xxxx]

I read this earlier in the paper and felt sick.

torture, id cards, rendition, 3 months detention without charge - they've all gone mad.

Look on the bright side, soon we won't have any freedoms for 'them' to hate.

[Gemini]

A great story for torture fans everywhere here

I read this earlier in the paper and felt sick.

torture, id cards, rendition, 3 months detention without charge - they've all gone mad.

Me too!!

They are Barking !

[Sandra]

A great story for torture fans everywhere here

I read this earlier in the paper and felt sick.

me too. scary stuff.

[Dadaist]

Porty is fond of reminding us that we live in the Freeest country on Earth and that we should be grateful. Oh and also that we are constantly making out like this is a Police State.

I don't know what the Torture Posse will think if any of them even bother to read the article - I'm sure they think it's Leftist propaganda or something - but imagine their horror and revulsion if the exact same acts were being perpetrated on Their Own Kind - ie white Christian western types. Oh wait you don't have to imagine it - they did bleat when Ken Bigley got captured. Oh but they beheaded him, it's not like a wee bit of torture. Oh, right, ok then, sorry.

If I am a terrorist sympathiser, the torture posse are .... insert insult of your choice.

[Gemini]

Porty is fond of reminding us that we live in the Freeest country on Earth and that we should be grateful. Oh and also that we are constantly making out like this is a Police State.

I don't know what the Torture Posse will think if any of them even bother to read the article - I'm sure they think it's Leftist propaganda or something - but imagine their horror and revulsion if the exact same acts were being perpetrated on Their Own Kind - ie white Christian western types. Oh wait you don't have to imagine it - they did bleat when Ken Bigley got captured. Oh but they beheaded him, it's not like a wee bit of torture. Oh, right, ok then, sorry.

If I am a terrorist sympathiser, the torture posse are .... insert insult of your choice.

IMO, the US & UK Governments

[Gemini]

Off topic - but so what!



Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 10:53:37 +0000

Iraq Has Descended into Anarchy, Says Fisk
by Nigel Morris
The Independent UK

Thursday 13 October 2005

Most of Iraq is in a state of anarchy, with insurgents controlling parts of Baghdad just half a mile from the so-called Green Zone, an Independent debate was told last night.

Robert Fisk, Middle East correspondent for The Independent, whose new book The Great War for Civilisation: the Conquest of the Middle East has just been published by 4th Estate, painted a picture of deepening chaos and misery in Iraq more than two years after Saddam Hussein was toppled.

He said that the "constant, intensive involvement" in the Middle East by the West was a recurring pattern over centuries and was the reason why "so many Muslims in the Middle East hate us". He added: " We can close doors on history. They can't."

Fisk doubted the sincerity of Western leaders' commitment to bringing democracy to Iraq and said a lasting settlement in the country was impossible while foreign troops remained. "In the Middle East, they would like some of our democracy, they would like a couple of boxes off the supermarket shelves of human rights as well. But I think they would also like freedom from us."

Recalling the sight of an immense US convoy rolling into the country's capital, he said: "A superpower has a visceral need to project military power. We can go to Baghdad, so we will go to Baghdad."

He told the debate in London: "The Americans must leave Iraq and they will leave Iraq, but they can't leave Iraq and that is the equation that turns sand to blood. At some point, they will have to talk to the insurgents.

"But I don't know how, because those people who might be negotiators - the United Nations, the Red Cross their headquarters have been blown up. The reality now in Iraq is the project is finished. Most of Iraq, except Kurdistan, is in a state of anarchy."

He said that the portrayal of Iraq by Western leaders - of efforts to introduce democracy, including Saturday's national vote on the country's proposed constitution - was "unreal" to most of its citizens. In Baghdad, children and women were kept at home to prevent them from being kidnapped for money or sold into slavery. They faced a desperate struggle to find the money to keep generators running to provide themselves with electricity. "They aren't sitting in their front rooms discussing the referendum on the constitution."

With insurgents half a mile from Baghdad's Green Zone, Fisk said the danger to reporters from a brutal insurgency that did not respect journalists was increasing. "Every time I go to Baghdad it's worse, every time I ask myself how we can keep going. Because the real question is - is the story worth the risk?"

He attacked television reporters for flinching from depicting the everyday bloodshed on the streets of Iraq. "You can go and see Saving Private Ryan or Kingdom of Heaven, people have their heads cut off. When it comes to real heads being cut off, you can't. I think television connives with governments at war." He added: "Newspapers can tell you as closely as they can what these horrors are like."

Asked if the "anger and passion" he felt over the events he witnessed had affected his objectivity, he said: "When you are at the scene of a massacre, you are entitled to feel immense anger and I do."

He rejected suggestions that graphic pictures of the dead in newspapers took away their dignity. He said: "My view is the people who are dead would want us to record what happened to them."

[MrsMc]

I'm shocked that so many on this poll voted for torture.

Where is your humanity - freaks!

[Dadaist]

I'm shocked that so many on this poll voted for torture.

Where is your humanity - freaks!

I was shocked too and still am. It was very controversial and although it was posted around the time of the London bombings (but I think before the Menezes shooting) the poll result is roughly accurate to US public opinion as well - they are happy for others to suffer if it guarantees their own security.

[mr magnolia]

Only just caught up with this thread again, so still reeling a bit from the Herald story posted by xxxx.

Anyone know what happened/is happening re the 'debate' about whether British courts can or will accept evidence obtained under torture?

[xxxx]

Only just caught up with this thread again, so still reeling a bit from the Herald story posted by xxxx.

Anyone know what happened/is happening re the 'debate' about whether British courts can or will accept evidence obtained under torture?

The law lords were beginning deliberations on oct 17, but I haven't seen any result yet.

[xxxx]

More torture as it is in the real world, rather than the fantasy situation that this thread started with, here. This is how the 'evidence' is produced that the law lords are being asked to allow.

[Dadaist]

More torture as it is in the real world, rather than the fantasy situation that this thread started with, here. This is how the 'evidence' is produced that the law lords are being asked to allow.

They don't care, and won't respond. The POL Torture Posse are just a reflection of an uncomfortable fact I guess - some people are happy for others to suffer, including innocents, if they think it ensures their own safety.

[xxxx]

some people are happy for others to suffer, including innocents,

The problem is that everyone is innocent, even the ones you don't like, until proven guilty, and torture is not a reliable method of establishing guilt.
This is a principle to safeguard everyone from people who, for some reason, might not like them.

[Cynthia]

Its just let me vote and the non torturers are in the lead - still a bit scared of the numbers who are in favour of torture who live in Portobello -