New Portobello High School - on going issues

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 28 May 2010, 19:57

It would be nice to see a good turnout. I hope plenty attend the other events and get comments recorded.

Not just the usual mumpers and grumpers though.

I have heard that as a consequence of the school being built there will be £500,000 up for grabs to spend on open space in the Portobello/ Craigmillar partnership area. Due to the usual goings on this seems to be getting overlooked slightly. I hope we dont miss a trick here and see the money drift elsewhere.

I want to suggest getting the area at the bottom of Marlborough street upgraded or the tumble down shed at the play park fixed up.

Can anybody explain the workings of this?
Does it deserve another thread for suggestions?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 29 May 2010, 11:34

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 02 Jun 2010, 20:47

Like the proposals or not, there is now a chance for all to go along and view the plans and offer suggestions and comments in a relaxed environment before the public meeting circus starts again.

They are making the effort to ask questions, be nice if they got loads of sensible responses.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 03 Jun 2010, 11:29

I believe the reveal to the parents at PHS went down very well on Monday night.

Was there much discussion on the new school at the PCC on Monday evening?

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 03 Jun 2010, 11:57

New school was very well received by all the parents I spoke to. Mrs Pal of Porty thought it was fantastic.

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 03 Jun 2010, 12:44

At the Community Council the PHS issue is like the elephant in the room.
Everybody can see it but they are all pretending it is not there because they don't want it to be there.

Only mention was the fact that there is a consultation and when asked if there was any meeting's organised PCC was informed a meeting was set up for the next day on the Public Meeting.

Bit sad our community reps. cannot even discuss how to discuss something. It's only a measly £41.5M school after all.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 03 Jun 2010, 15:01

allaboardtheskylark wrote:Only mention was the fact that there is a consultation and when asked if there was any meeting's organised PCC was informed a meeting was set up for the next day on the Public Meeting.

Sounds like an afterthought? What do you mean a meeting on the public meeting?

Are PCC sending any reps to the meeting on the public meeting?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 03 Jun 2010, 16:29

Flier being distributed by the Council to publicise the consultation:

Pre-Planning Consultation

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 03 Jun 2010, 17:01

All seems reasonable and comprehensive. Although I can't see mention of the meeting allaboardtheskylark refers to?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 03 Jun 2010, 18:15

And this is the leaflet that PFANS will be distributing to parents of children in the feeder primaries and local nurseries:

PFANS leaflet

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 04 Jun 2010, 00:22

There was a meeting held on Tuesday with the Chair of the PCC, the Secretary of the PCC and the Council about the public meeting.

Obviously it was an oversight the office bearers never informed the PCC about this meeting until questioned at the end of the PCC meeting.

Hope that makes sense.

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 04 Jun 2010, 10:17

Bob Jefferson wrote:And this is the leaflet that PFANS will be distributing to parents of children in the feeder primaries and local nurseries:

PFANS leaflet

That leaflet is excellent.
Just a suggestion - wouldn't it be a good idea to distribute it to all people in the cfomunity, rather than just targeting a specific group? The leaflet does say taht the school and facilities should be open to all - so early inclusion at this stage could only be good. Of course, a lot of people will say "this has nothing to do with me", but the sheer amount of info in the leaflet, esp the details about meetings etc, makes me think you really want to get this out to everyone. Perhpas copies could be left in local shops? Have a stall outside the Town Hall at the weekend?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 04 Jun 2010, 10:26

Ideally it would be widely distributed but there are financial constraints.

The Council should be doing a mail shot to all residents so at least everyone will be made aware of the Consultation.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 04 Jun 2010, 13:41

Leaflets are great - I loved the 'One thing you could do', column etc.

Not so sure about the, "Small but determined minority" quote as every one of the 'small but determined minority' I know, keep telling me they speak for the Majority!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 04 Jun 2010, 14:41

The leaflets are very good. A school in the park is starting to feel real.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 04 Jun 2010, 14:50

Pal of Porty wrote:Not so sure about the, "Small but determined minority" quote as every one of the 'small but determined minority' I know, keep telling me they speak for the Majority!

In realty the small and determined minority amounts to the adult members of just 5 or 6 households.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 04 Jun 2010, 16:15

Bolstered by a few misguided Greens who need a lesson in environmental justice and a few misinformed golfers who will quickly lose interest once they get the message that the school is not going to be built on the golf course.

Oh, and one or two local loonies. I think that just about sums up the opposition. The misguided, the misinformed and the misanthropic.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 04 Jun 2010, 17:07

I think some of the opposition perfectly understandable. If you live next to the Park and like the view out of your window then yes, I can see why you might not be too keen on the pnew school. Add to that the continued distortions and misinformation about the proposals.

Even now, the front page of the PPAG website talks about the "council's proposal to build housing" on the park, even though that suggestion was dropped over four years ago.

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 04 Jun 2010, 20:50

This after a fairly unpleasant start to the consultation is now starting to look very positive and very real. Finally starting to believe this is going to happen.

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 04 Jun 2010, 20:57

Seanie, looks like PPAG are still pushing the housing angle and of course it is school(s) on the park not school.

The goal's they consistently achieve are own goal's.

Perhaps they should try telling the truth or just give and figgate the whole thing.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 05 Jun 2010, 11:32

seanie wrote:I think some of the opposition perfectly understandable. If you live next to the Park and like the view out of your window then yes, I can see why you might not be too keen on the pnew school. Add to that the continued distortions and misinformation about the proposals.

Even now, the front page of the PPAG website talks about the "council's proposal to build housing" on the park, even though that suggestion was dropped over four years ago.

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:13 pm

portyman wrote:

Hi - thought I'd join in on the ˜discussion"¦ There's quite a lot to comment on, even if it is all conjecture, rumour and gossip? So apologies in advance if this rambles.

First, I declare an interest¦ I chose to live on Park Avenue. That is, I didnât stick a pin in a map and I didn't find it in a lucky bag. My, then pregnant, wife and I selected this area from a variety of alternatives, largely, but not simply, because it overlooks the park and golf course an ideal situation to raise a family in our view. We did, of course, pay a premium for this, but were happy to do so.

I have since come to love and enjoy the eccentric nature and community spirit of Portobello (Hence my forum name, which I also use in a variety of completely unrelated situations¦ despite, technically, not being in or from Portobello.)

Now, seventeen years laterâ€¦ I find that this fine amenity on my doorstep is to be destroyed, with a direct impact on my immediate environment, the quality of my family's life and the value of my home. And for what? To compensate for the failure, short-sightedness and incompetence of the education authority and council? .

Even although his rationale is bollocks, especially regarding the potential down valuing of his house. I can sympathise with the argument At the time I recall thinking that here is a refreshing change in the debate. At least he's being honest. How naive was I?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 05 Jun 2010, 14:02

Porty wrote: Even although his rationale is bollocks, especially regarding the potential down valuing of his house.

Way back in pre-credit crunch, staff in one local nursery first knew about the 'school in the park' proposal, when they heard the children(!) and their parents talk about concerns regarding falling house prices.

I'm sure given your experience Porty you are well placed to say that this is a daft concern. How can a spanking new high school for the area possibly devalue house prices? Surely they are more likely to rise if anything?! If I was the parent of a nursery school age child my concern would be how quickly I could get the school built!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 06 Jun 2010, 15:24

As part of the ongoing consultation, Portobello Library will be hosting an exhibition from tomorrow until 27 June. A similar exhibition will take place in Piershill Library. I will try to get pdfs of the drawings to put online.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 06 Jun 2010, 16:36

Marya-Next September it will be 20 years since I ceased practicing as an Estate Agent. However, there is no evidence or precedent that I know of that would dictate a property would go down in value because a new school was built within view. And as you say it could make properties in the vicinity more desirable. The people I know that live close to the exiting school are quite happy.
Properties that do come on the market tend to sell quickly and for substantial sums of money. I don’t believe many of them will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a jump in value when the school gets built on the park.

I have not conducted a comparative analysis on the areas but I’m fairly sure that properties close to the existing school do sell more quickly than those on Park Avenue and Duddingston Park. And the current school building is towering monstrosity Perhaps not true of all house styles but it would be hard to dispute. I don’t buy the argument that people bid more for a view of a council owned man made object, when they choose to buy a linked house in a city. I’m not convinced the views from the houses will alter much. We will all have to wait and see.

seashell · Post by **seashell** » 06 Jun 2010, 21:27

I can talk from experience: when I moved home (in Musselburgh) 20 years ago, there was a field at the bottom of the street. East Lothian Council then built a primary school, which has since been enlarged.
Did house prices fall? No. Quite the reverse - the school has a good reputation, so house prices in the surrounding streets actually rose. And surely it is in everyones interests for all schools to have a good reputation - not only in the standard of education but also the care for pupils and the amenities they can offer the local community.
Is the street noisier/busier? Undoubtedly. But if you choose to live in a community, then you have to accept that benefits also come with some downsides to them.
A school isn't going to be as attractive as an open (and quiet) area of parkland. But the school is essential and there is no realistic alternative.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 07 Jun 2010, 13:26

Please show your support for the new school by adding the Facebook Page I have just set up:

A New Portobello High School in the Park

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 08 Jun 2010, 20:33

This is a pdf of some of the display material that is being used in the exhibition at Portobello Library. More drawings to follow as and when I receive them.

Pre-Planning Display 1

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 08 Jun 2010, 21:22

My own thoughts so far;

OPEN SPACE IMPROVEMENTS
• Improve walking opportunities by developing a proper path network around the golf-course, particularly the woodland to the western edge, between the school and golf-course, and between the school and Milton Road.
• Portobello attracts a significant number of people from outside the area, particularly teenagers and young people who perceive it as a safe place. However there is little in terms of public facilities for this age group. Recreational spaces for teenagers should be developed close to or on the Prom e.g. the civic space adjacent to the Bridge Street car park (CIV 16); the amenity space at Rathbone Place (AM 56); the eastern portion of Straiton Place amenity space (AM 57).
• Develop a focal point on the wide section of the Prom opposite the Portobello Community Garden (PG 26) e.g. interactive water feature/pavement fountains.
• Develop a linear Skate/BMX park along the Seafield stretch of the Promenade.
• Improve Jewel Park (PG21) and the adjacent green corridor (GRE 3, GRE 11, GRE 2, GRE 9).
• Improve accessibility to Cavalry Park as a multi-pitch venue.
• Incorporate a publicly accessible synthetic pitch as part of the alteration and extension of Towerbank Primary School.
• Incorporate a publicly accessible synthetic pitch as part of St John’s Primary School, on an expanded site, following the demolition of PHS.
• Improve disabled access to Portobello Beach with ramped access and occasional boardwalks.
• Improve pitch quality at Joppa Quarry Park (PF 4).
• Locate toddler/junior play spaces to SE & NW corner of Portobello Park
• Re-instate hard games court on the site of the former tennis courts in Rosefield Park.
SPORTS FACILITIES
• Two pitches will only support the school’s curriculum needs and community use if they are full sized, both synthetic, and to 3G standard.
• Pitches are best orientated on a NNW-SSE alignment but the importance of that should not be over-stated, particularly if synthetic and floodlit. A greater priority should be what arrangement results in the greatest benefit overall, bearing in mind the residual public Open Space and walking opportunities around the Park.
• At least one of the pitches should be freely accessible to the public outside of school hours i.e. not requiring booking.
SAFE ROUTES TO SCHOOL/TRAFFIC/PARKING
• An analysis of likely travel patterns and routes to school should be undertaken to identify locations where safety improvements are required.
• Crossing points to Milton Road and elsewhere should be increased.
• Cycle routes should be identified highlighting where cycle lanes/priority should be introduced. Sufficient cycle parking should be provided.
• A traffic assessment should be undertaken for the surrounding area and a management plan devised, in particular for Milton Road.
• A strategy for safe vehicular access to and egress from the school should be demonstrated, for both regular and occasional patterns of use (coaches etc).
• Drop-off zones should be discouraged.
• Whilst the school will inevitable require parking facilities these should not be excessive, especially given the excellent public transport links to the site. Given the slope of the site, staff parking could be incorporated in undercrofts to maximise public space around the building.
LANDSCAPING
• The school should have a strong presence as a public building, not isolated behind security fences. As such the external spaces and landscaping around the building are of great importance. A layering of spaces, from fully public to exclusive to the school, should be sought.
• The area between the school and Milton Road should act as a buffer space, allowing east-west movement set back from the road for both pupils and public, as well as providing spaces to congregate.
• The area between the school and golf-course should also allow east-west movement for pupils and public, but also form an effective barrier to movement across the golf-course. The woodland strip should be maintained and enhanced.
• Berms & changes in level should be introduced along the golf-course/public path/school to improve visual and acoustic separation and create natural boundaries without a reliance on fences.
• Informal gathering/seating/covered areas should be provided around the external perimeter of the school for both pupil and public use.
• Public seating should be maintained to the SE corner of the park so that the protected view to Arthur’s Seat can continue to be enjoyed.
SUSTAINABLILITY
• The sustainability of the design should be demonstrated; that current needs will be met without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs.
• This should include information on; the social and educational advantages of the new school; how the design will support learning, teaching and the Curriculum For Excellence; the extent to which the building itself will be a learning tool; how the facilities can benefit the wider community; the flexibility and adaptability of the design; ICT provision; anticipated energy use; passive low energy design measures; daylighting, acoustics and ventilation; anticipated water demand; sustainable drainage; renewable technologies; specification of materials; means to encourage sustainable transport; future-proofing of the building; anticipated life-cycles of the building elements; opportunities to promote bio-diversity.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 08 Jun 2010, 21:37

He's good, isn't he? Have you ever thought of being an architect, seanie? Designing schools perhaps?

Do you think the architects involved will be genuinely excited about this development? Will they see it as an opportunity to come up with an award-winning design that will enhance their reputation and set the benchmark for schools to follow? Or are they pretty much constrained by budget? We all want the very best, but just how good do you expect the new school to be?

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 08 Jun 2010, 22:08

Buildings, perhaps without exception, are compromises. The quality of a design lies, in may ways, in how well those compromises are handled.

Truth be told, the site chosen is not ideal, largely because of its size; a slightly bigger site would've offered more opportunities. If the option to relocate the golf-course had been pursued then there really would've been an opportunity to combine a school and a park in a way that could've been outstanding.

However the proposed relocation was all tied up with financing through development on the park so it's perfectly understandable why there was resistance and that aspect was dropped.

But even as things stand the current proposals could be very special. Certainly the new school will be a vast improvement on the current facilities and, in a perverse way, the financial problems that have delayed the project could ultimately be beneficial. This will not be a PPP/PFI school. It's being procured through more traditional means.

For the architects involved, given the general experience over the last 15 years of PFI/PPP, I'd think they'd be overjoyed at the opportunity here.

allaboardtheskylark · Post by **allaboardtheskylark** » 09 Jun 2010, 00:08

From the very early stages it has been obvious the architects are excited about this project. They are working with and for the customers and have made it abundantly clear they are delighted to do so.

I am confident all their experience gained from the last few years will be used to full effect without the constraints of PFI/PPP or whatever. This will be one of the very best school buildings in Scotland.

Bar none.

ps good work seanie.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 09 Jun 2010, 18:33

Just in case anyone has forgotten, it's the public meeting at the Town Hall tonight. The new school is not a foregone conclusion. PPAG supporters are determined to stop it in its tracks or to at least delay it for as long as possible. So if you want to see the school completed by 2014 it's important that you get along tonight and show your support. Bring a friend. Bring your kids.

The meeting starts at 7:30 pm but you will need to get there early if you want a seat. It's time to speak up for the thousands of local children who will benefit from this fantastic new school in the park.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Jun 2010, 22:28

So...

...any comedy gold moments this evening?

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 09 Jun 2010, 22:43

The architect making a balls up on quite a few points. Presentations and public engagement obviously not his strong point.

The Deputy Head Teacher - who gave that guy a mike?? WTF?

Very interesting debate - chair was good.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 09 Jun 2010, 22:46

Details?