New Portobello High School - PPAG/"Save Porty Park"

[Puerto bella]

Word on the street is there's a pentagram all marked out and a sacrificial stone waiting for Sean and Stephen in the community orchard.

[Epykat]

BTW what's Golf Delta got to do with it?

Keep up! I thought you had your finger on the pulse.....GD is the bitter witch - I'm the vacuous liar

[Epykat]

Word on the street is there's a pentagram all marked out and a sacrificial stone waiting for Sean and Stephen in the community orchard.

I think Stephen's off the hook for now. The effigy is of Reg I believe.

[Puerto bella]

Would that be 'Reg and the multi personalities' - that hit 70's punk band?

[Porty]

GD is the bitter witch - I'm the vacuous liar

That's not very nice. I'm not sure either of you deserve those "accolades":

Don't deprive generations to come of valuable asset

Your feature on Portobello Park (News, October 4) fails to recognise a key fact about the current campaign to save 25 per cent of Portobello's parkland from being lost forever.

It is not a question of having to decide between either a park or a new school. We can have both, as the school could be rebuilt on its current site. This was the council's intention in 2003, as per the Atkins feasibility study, and the current school site was the council's second choice following the educational consultation of 2006.

Rebuilding the school on the exisiting site would provide the new educational facilities needed, whilst retaining an important public open space which is well used for a variety of purposes by children and adults alike.

Free access to green space has proven health benefits, so let's not deprive future generations of this valuable asset.

Diana Cairns, West Brighton Crescent, Edinburgh

[Betty Windsor]

Is it not the case that the condition of the school has been exaggerated and that it is in no worse state than others across the city. Most parents in the area just want a new school, and only support it being built on the park as they don't know the full facts. It is interesting that the level of interest in the new school seems to be concentrated around Towerbank. The parents at Brunstane/Duddingston/Parsons Green and St Johns don't seem to be making much noise at all. Sean et al seems to think they speaks for all parents, but the truth is that many are unwilling to speak up for fear of being ridiculed and browbeaten. Who is going to be surprised when, if the school goes ahead, that within a year or so there will be an urgent need to close Castlebrae and extend Portobello? The council have wanted to get their hands on this land for a long time. They gambled they would get away with it because people in working class areas are known to put up less resistance. You only have to look at the citing of the skatepark in Saughton after years of local opposition to putting it in the Meadows.

I hope the people of Magdalene and the Christians remember which councillours sold them out at the next election.

[seanie]

No that's not the case. Even back in 2003 when being considered for PPP2 PHS was one of the worst school buildings as far as condition and fitness for purpose were concerned. And during the 2008 prioritisation process it was identified as the school most urgently in need of replacement. Remember that the decision to proceed with PHS received near unanimous backing from Cllrs across the city, Cllrs who have schools in their own wards that need investment. They supported prioritising PHS because a new school was needed.

[Porty]

Sean et al seems to think they speaks for all parents, but the truth is that many are unwilling to speak up for fear of being ridiculed and browbeaten. .

An you go onto say:

Most parents in the area just want a new school, and only support it being built on the park as they don't know the full facts. .

I think you'll find its yourself claiming to speak for most parents,no?

The parents at Brunstane/Duddingston/Parsons Green and St Johns don't seem to be making much noise at all. .

That was certainly true throughout the process and it was frustrating. However, now the school is on the horizon the parents at other schools are probably just as interested as those at Towerbank

They gambled they would get away with it because people in working class areas are known to put up less resistance

The Fringe finished at the end of August.

[Bob Jefferson]

You can't beat a conspiracy theorist. Unfortunately.

[seanie]

It's also difficult to see much political fallout given that all the major parties have supported the new school project.

[wangi]

It is interesting that the level of interest in the new school seems to be concentrated around Towerbank. The parents at Brunstane/Duddingston/Parsons Green and St Johns don't seem to be making much noise at all.

That's not what the representation received for the planning application shows:

Subject: New Portobello High School - planning application

(view: small; large)

The dots are scaled by the number of representations at that postcode; with a bit movement to avoid overlaid points.

Okay, maybe not much from around Brunstane PS; but the rest...

[seanie]

Parson's Green has certainly given strong support, and if you look back to the 2006 consultation on the site all the cluster primaries were very much I'n favour of the proposals.

[Porty]

Is it not the case that the condition of the school has been exaggerated and that it is in no worse state than others across the city. ............ It is interesting that the level of interest in the new school seems to be concentrated around Towerbank. .

Sean, these people must believe you are one mighty powerful and persuasive Dude. Portobello doesn't need a new school, you are chair of Towerbank parent Council, you haven't lived in the area all that long and Hey Presto!! the council decide to invest £41m in a new school for us. What's with you man? Are you some sort of capital investment in education junkie?

Have you got previous? Can you share your address history over say the last 20 years and provide details of new schools built in the vicinty. You could be a secret agent. Did the council pay you to move here to stir things up?

If not, then perhaps you should consider pimping yourself to other councils or districts who want new schools. Think about it, we could make a fortune in transfer fees just by uprooting your family to a new area every few years. I say "we" because I am pitching to be your agent. You'll be like the new Chief White Halfoat , a human divining rod for new build schools. Do we have a deal?

I hope the people of Magdalene and the Christians remember which councillours sold them out at the next election.

Everyone knows that working class people can't be bothered to vote.

[seanie]

The horny handed sons of toil on Park Avenue will surely make the effort? Golf course designers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but convenient parking!!!!

[seanie]

From May 2006;

I had a closer look at the Prioritisation Scoring for PPP2.

14 schools were given a score reflecting a number of factors, the higher the score the greater the priority. Of those 14 Portobello ranked 11th overall, but 6 of those 14 ranked as unsuitable for PPP. Discounting them Portobello ranked last.

When it comes to the individual categories for the 14 schools, Portobello scored highly on matters relating to the school itself:

For Fitness for Purpose only 3 schools ranked worse and 9 ranked better.

For Accessibility only 1 school ranked worse.

For Condition only 2 schools ranked worse, 10 ranked better, with Holyrood the same.

Judged on those three criteria alone only one school ranked as a higher priority – Boroughmuir.

However Portobello scored low on the remaining categories.

For Demand (catchment numbers) Portobello scored low with a forecast decline in line with the city average. 9 schools ranked higher, some considerably so, and 4 ranked lower.

For Developing Disadvantaged Areas Portobello scored very low with a comparatively advantaged intake. Only 2 schools were better off and 11 were worse.

For Community Facilities Portobello scored low with 9 schools ranked higher, 2 the same and 2 lower.

For Assisting Estate Management Portobello was one of 4 schools to score 0 (in part due to anticipated decline in demand).

So whilst PHS was rated as a lower priority by some PPP2 criteria, it was clearly one of the most urgent in terms of physical condition. That situation can be expected to deteriorate as time progresses.

And as time progressed, Portobello High School became the most urgent priority due to the physical degradation of the building and its inherent shortcomings.

[Franck]

The parents at Brunstane/Duddingston/Parsons Green and St Johns don't seem to be making much noise at all.

With regards to St.Johns, even though the majority of pupils tend not to go onto PHS (I'd guestimate..Sean won't like this! ) that 6 out of every 10 pupils go to Holyrood, 1 in 10 onto Heriots/Broughton etc and 3 out of 10 onto PHS.

From conversations I've had in the playground, every parent agrees that the school is required to be rebuilt and accept the location chosen.

[Porty]

I broadly agree with you Franck, although in my day a St John's parent I would say there was a higher percentage went on to private/music schools. (one of my 3 did).

I think Lizzie's thrust was "noise" and its fair to say that most if not all primary schools, didn't make much noise. It reminded me of Easter Road on the Sunday after Scottish Cup Final day, you could hear a pin drop.

[Porty]

The horny handed sons of toil on Park Avenue will surely make the effort? Golf course designers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but convenient parking!!!!

A bit of a tangent:

i was listening to a debate on the JV show last week and it was about parking. Apparently there is no right to park on the public highway. I mistakenly believed that there was a given right to park anywhere that was not restiricted by bye-law or similar. Not sure if that's UK wide.

[Betty Windsor]

Re conspiracy theory. Has anyone asked the council to deny this? I base my assertion on two counts 1. The architect involved was heard to say the best thing about the park site was the ability to extend. 2. The council want to close Castlebrae.
I'd love to hear the council's official line on this-in writing with a named source.

[seanie]

1.Not at any of the numerous events I attended he didn't.

2. The intention is still to replace Caslebrae with a brand new school. In fact the new school will form the centrepiece of a new town centre for Craigmillar so is integral to the long term redevelopment of the area. That's been put on hold due to the economic situation but it should be revived when circumstances allow.

[Betty Windsor]

I think the fact that you didn't hear him hardly constitutes as evidence that he didn't say it or are you all hearing as well as all-knowing?
Do you know how low the school role at Castlebrae is? I think it's highly unlikely the council will have money to rebuild the school given current conditions and as the school is expensive to maintain never mind staff, I think it is the only sensible solution.
Do I gather you would not approve of this development? And if not would that be because it would probably involve building on the golf course or that you will have 300+ kids from Niddrie coming into the school?

[Betty Windsor]

Porty wrote "Everyone knows that working class people can't be bothered to vote"
I think it's fair to say they don't object to planning in the same numbers as the middle-classes. That's why I think this whole thing stinks.
Never mind the good news is that £150K has been allocated to Magdalene and Christians by way of compensation for the loss of amenity to the local Neighbourhood Partnership. Would love to know what they'll get for that paltry sum. It clearly shows the contempt that the residents of Magdalene and the Christians are held in by the council.

[seanie]

And the fact you say he was heard saying it, doesn't mean he did.

The roll was about 250 the last I looked, and you don't need to tell me the Council can't build the school I'n the current conditions as I've just told you they they can't build it due to current conditions. However, conditions will change, Craigmillar will be redeveloped, and that will help pay for the new school. I think a new Craigmillar Community High School, accompanied by other community facilities, would be a huge benefit to Craigmillar and could be the key to a successful regeneration of the area.

[Betty Windsor]

That's priceless! I'm sure the council will take on board your support of a new school in Craigmillar. I don't think any right minded person would think it even remotely possible that a new high school be built for such a small number of pupils.

[seanie]

And where to spend the £150,000 hasn't yet been decided by the Neighbourhood Partnership. There was a consultation on it recently. It may still be open to responses.

[seanie]

That's priceless! I'm sure the council will take on board your support of a new school in Craigmillar. I don't think any right minded person would think it even remotely possible that a new high school be built for such a small number of pupils.

You may (or may not) have noticed that large swathes of Craigmillar have been levelled in recent years. That land was planned for large scale development, with thousands of new homes. That's on hold due to the economic situation but you'd expect it to go ahead eventually. And when it does, developer contributions will pay for the new school. The new larger school that will be needed due to the increased number of pupils generated by all the new housing.

[Betty Windsor]

I think you'll find they wont get much for their £150,000.
The green space around the Christians and Magdalene has been eroded hugely in the last 40 years. People like you who aspire to have their children go to a school in a park (presumably because you can't afford Watsons/Edinburgh Acadamy etc) are happy for them to sacrifice their last bit of green space for you.
You have admitted on many occasions that it could be rebuilt on the existing site and yet you still want one of the poorest sections of our community to make that sacrifice.
Shame on the lot of you.

[seanie]

Whilst it's possible to rebuild on the existing site, there would be serious problems with that.

The existing site is too small, less than half the recommended minimum, hence the high rise design and lack of adequate sports facilities. Even if St John's moved (which they don't want to do) the site would still be to small.

Also you couldn't rebuild on site without an extended decant. Decanting 1400 pupils off-site for 2-3 years would not only be hugely disruptive, it would also be hugely expensive. It could easily exceed £8 million, round about the cost of a new two stream primary school.

To spend considerably more, only to end up with a school fundamentally compromised by being on a site that's too small, doesn't make much sense when there's an alternative that delivers better facilities, at far less cost, and with less disruption.

[seanie]

And the fact remains that the park is principally used by dog walkers. Kids don't use it much.

The new paths will still allow people to exercise whilst enjoying the views and the accessible all-weather pitches will be a huge improvement that local kids will enjoy.

[Porty]

Working class people will likely be pro new school. Their kids and relatives dont tend to go to private school. The council are forking out 41 million quid for a school which will benegit the young people in magdalene and christians. You have strange take on contempt

All in all the council have treated all parties fairly throughout the process. Thare are signs that the council are contenptous to one group of local residents who dont live in magdalene or the christians. Protect Park AvenuedsGarden.

[rmolehusband]

Would that be 'Reg and the multi personalities' - that hit 70's punk band?

I can assure you there is only one of me. As for Fenella and her pentagram, she'd need to be a better witch, rather than just a bitter one, to have me worried.

[Betty Windsor]

Some woud say there are serious problems with building on the last remaining green space in a poor area. And all these issues with building on the site are not insurmountable. Children only spend 4-6 years of their lives at school and you only had to watch the programme about a school in Africa to know that learning does not only take place in nice shiny new schools built on parks.
You want us to believe the only people who object are the people in Park Av you conveniently forget about the poorest section of our community ie Magdalend/Christians who although might not be organised or vocal about it but who are in largely against the building on the park.
Of course most parents want a new school - a no-brainer I'd have thought.

[seanie]

Spending considerably more money, to end up with a poorer quality school campus, makes little sense, especially when that additional money would be money not being spent on another school in need of investment.

[Betty Windsor]

Really, is that the best you can come up with. It'll save money? Why not just come clean? You don't care that the people in Magdalene/Christians have no green space. You'll be telling me how ugly the park is and how nobody uses it next.
You want your children to go to a school on a park and as you presumably don't have the means to send them to one of the many establishments in the city with just what you want, you expect the poorest kids in the area to give up their last remaining green space.
Like I said earlier.
Shame on you.

[seanie]

I have no desire to send my kids to private school; quite the contrary.

And no, it's not just about saving money, but cost is a consideration. Building on the park will deliver better facilities, with less disruption, and at considerably less cost, meaning more funds available to improving other schools.

And I readily concede that people do use the park.

Just not many of them, and mostly they're dog walkers.