Hovercraft / ferry service from Fife to Portobello?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 19 Jun 2007, 07:47

From the BBC:

Forth hovercraft trial to begin

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 19 Jun 2007, 08:51

Stagecoach press release

Timetable and further info coming soon at:

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/fife/forthfast.html

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 19 Jun 2007, 11:06

Hovercraft start date

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 19 Jun 2007, 11:34

bearcub wrote:Hovercraft start date

Ahem! Think you'll find this link is already up bc. Don't you read these threads?

Just thought I'd remind folk of the public information session being held today, by Stagecoach, in the Community Centre from noon - 2 p.m.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 19 Jun 2007, 13:03

I've picked up my timetable and now can't wait to book my ticket.

The presentation is over and the BBC have left but there are still a few bodies around if you want to ask any questions or pick up a timetable for yourself.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 19 Jun 2007, 16:30

We could have a POL outing, the first aquatic venture?

bellybabe · Post by **bellybabe** » 19 Jun 2007, 16:46

Or a TalkPorty outing...

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 19 Jun 2007, 16:56

Oops. My apologies.

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 19 Jun 2007, 19:10

How often will they run & what times?
Didnt manage to get to Communtiy Centre, bit busy with other things.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 19 Jun 2007, 19:15

Try here, SD: hovercraft

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 19 Jun 2007, 19:19

How creepy is Ted?

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 19 Jun 2007, 19:22

Marya wrote:
bearcub wrote:Hovercraft start date
Ahem! Think you'll find this link is already up bc. Don't you read these threads?

Nope, what do you think I am, a mod or something?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 19 Jun 2007, 22:03

From today's EN:

Test run for Forth hovercraft

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 20 Jun 2007, 05:42

From today's Scotsman:

Stagecoach to launch hover trial for Forth commuters

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 30 Jun 2007, 08:31

Anyone else planning on being on the maiden voyage from Portobello? We sail at dawn. Well not quite, it's Monday 16 July at 8 am to be precise.

Interested? This is after all an historic occasion and I for one would like to say I was there and hopefully get some film footage. We could breakfast in Kirkcaldy before returning. Or maybe just stay onboard?

Don't know if tickets can be purchased in advance but I will make some enquiries and let you know.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 30 Jun 2007, 10:19

I'd love to be, but can't make it

Word of warning regarding filming Bob. Hovercrafts can send up a fair bit of spray - you might not see an awful lot!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Jul 2007, 18:15

Bob Jefferson wrote:Anyone else planning on being on the maiden voyage from Portobello? We sail at dawn. Well not quite, it's Monday 16 July at 8 am to be precise.

Interested? This is after all an historic occasion and I for one would like to say I was there and hopefully get some film footage. We could breakfast in Kirkcaldy before returning.
.

Take it you've never been to KirkcaldY?

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 09 Jul 2007, 13:52

Bob Jefferson wrote:Anyone else planning on being on the maiden voyage from Portobello? We sail at dawn. Well not quite, it's Monday 16 July at 8 am to be precise.

Thanks for the warning Bob, I will be travelling to Kirkcaldy on Monday but will now avoid the first sailing. I'm hoping I can take my bike on board as it will be great fun to go bombing along both Porty and Kirkcaldy promenades on the same day. Hopefully I won't be distracted and crash into some anorak with a video camera.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 09 Jul 2007, 14:12

tom nimmo wrote: I'm hoping I can take my bike on board as it will be great fun to go bombing along both Porty and Kirkcaldy promenades on the same day. Hopefully I won't be distracted and crash into some anorak with a video camera.

'Bombing along' Tom? What a rebel

I was at the presentation in the Community centre when someone asked if they could take their bike on board. The answer was 'yes' but when it was pointed out where bikes would be stored it seemed to me as if they would be on the deck. Wouldn't fancy all that salt spray over my shiny Shimano if I was you

Might be worthwhile checking out if bikes will be carried indoors or not.

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 09 Jul 2007, 15:27

I'm up for this trip! My camera is in the mood to take photos of the waves, seabirds, Porty from a different direction etc

I'll buy a waterproof hat.

tom nimmo · Post by **tom nimmo** » 09 Jul 2007, 15:35

Thanks for the info Marya. As I use my bike every day for travelling to work it's in a bit of a state from all the rain recently so a good wash down with some salt water spray will do it the world of good. Here's my ideal suggestion for a good summer day out. Hovercraft to Kirkcaldy, walk the Fife coastal path all the way beyond North Queensferry and across the bridge to Dalmeny where you can get the train home. Just imagine how happy that would make you feel. Anyone up for it?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 09 Jul 2007, 16:05

rapunzell wrote:I'm up for this trip! My camera is in the mood to take photos of the waves, seabirds, Porty from a different direction etc I'll buy a waterproof hat.

Word of warning for you too Rapunzell. They haven't made any special provision for wheel chair access as they said it wasn't viable for the duration of the two week trial period, though they said that staff will be on hand to assist. You might want to confirm what precise form this 'assistance' will take

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 09 Jul 2007, 16:17

Marya wrote:
rapunzell wrote:I'm up for this trip! My camera is in the mood to take photos of the waves, seabirds, Porty from a different direction etc I'll buy a waterproof hat.
Word of warning for you too Rapunzell. They haven't made any special provision for wheel chair access as they said it wasn't viable for the duration of the two week trial period, though they said that staff will be on hand to assist. You might want to confirm what precise form this 'assistance' will take

Aw hell, am I ever going to get down to or onto or into this stretch of bloody water?! Thanks for the warning Maya, I wouldn't have guessed it. Perhaps the staff have a handy trebuchet to launch wheelchairs onto the deck

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 09 Jul 2007, 16:39

tom nimmo wrote:
Thanks for the warning Bob, I will be travelling to Kirkcaldy on Monday but will now avoid the first sailing. .

Captain Nimmo.

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 10 Jul 2007, 20:17

Well, I read the Disability Discrimination Act and the CoE's own equal access rules, and if the hovercraft goes ahead without disabled access it is neither a trial nor legal. In fact, certain councillors and depts involved in organising and supporting it were supposed to check on that as part of their job. I guess they were too busy getting excited at the prospect of a free trip...

So I've written to them to point out that they have enough time to cancel this before they're fined, install what they're supposed to install (and have already received the funding for) and run the trials _properly_ as soon as possible.

Why am I starting to feel really pessimistic..?

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 12 Jul 2007, 13:44

Amongst the responses to my letters, the one from Stagecoach is the most revealing. While others rangee from startled and concerned to embarrased and determined to make changes, this one suggests that Stagecoach intends to make it seem as though they're looking at the needs, but only those to meet the absolute letter of the law, and at the same time keeping their get-out clauses wide open.

The matter they claim to be taking seriously is clearly not that of ensuring equal access, it's the matter of ensuring they can't be fined. The italics and insertion of the date of the act are mine btw.

<Quote>

The keel of the vessel being leased was laid in 2003, so it predates the requirements of the legislation <i>(Oct 2004)</i>. In addition, as the service is not operating on a continuous basis but only for the two week trial period, there is therefore no requirement for us to provide DDA provision.

However, the craft only arrived in Scotland late on Tuesday evening, and underwent trials both at sea and on boarding / alighting arrangements during Wednesday and these are continuing today. We always intended to use these trials to assess and establish access arrangements for all our customers, including those with requirements covered by DDA, and to determine how best, <i>if at all</i>, this might be achieved.

During this two week period, we will be evaluating the possibility of different access equipment which will suit both the DDA and safety requirements of our customers. If we are able to achieve this during this period, it is our intention to make contact with Fife Independent Disability Network, who are located close to our berthing site in Kirkcaldy, to undertake trials and confirm the safety and practicality.

Once again, I apologise for my delay in replying, but you will appreciate that we are taking this matter extremely seriously and have been working to achieve a resolution.

Doug Fleming
Managing Director
Stagecoach East Scotland

Post by **wangi** » 12 Jul 2007, 14:00

Seems like a reasonable response.

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 12 Jul 2007, 14:57

wangi wrote:Seems like a reasonable response.

I'm astonished that anyone other than their legal team would think so, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised. General attitudes in this country seem to be that equal access is an optional extra, that 'too expensive to be worth it' is a valid excuse for a huge company who can afford it and knew in advance how to do it more cheaply anyway if they could be bothered, but they knew they didn't have to and that no-one would care anyway.

I hasten to add that it's not about trying to inflict equal access to existing services, which I know can be impossible or unwise or genuinely too expensive for tiny businesses in cases. This is a new service and Stagecoach, notorious for their attitude, think they've found a loophole that leasing a boat that predates the legislation invalidates the requirements. They probably needn't have bothered; it looks as though no-one is going to question them, not at this late stage.

A tiny ferry independant company starting out could have afforded access from the grants given, and I bet the councils would have been more strict with them, not even passing the plans until all access measures had been designed.

ali · Post by **ali** » 12 Jul 2007, 15:43

rapunzell wrote:
wangi wrote:Seems like a reasonable response.
I'm astonished that anyone other than their legal team would think so, but maybe I shouldn't be surprised. General attitudes in this country seem to be that equal access is an optional extra, that 'too expensive to be worth it' is a valid excuse for a huge company who can afford it and knew in advance how to do it more cheaply anyway if they could be bothered, but they knew they didn't have to and that no-one would care anyway.

I hasten to add that it's not about trying to inflict equal access to existing services, which I know can be impossible or unwise or genuinely too expensive for tiny businesses in cases. This is a new service and Stagecoach, notorious for their attitude, think they've found a loophole that leasing a boat that predates the legislation invalidates the requirements. They probably needn't have bothered; it looks as though no-one is going to question them, not at this late stage.

A tiny ferry independant company starting out could have afforded access from the grants given, and I bet the councils would have been more strict with them, not even passing the plans until all access measures had been designed.

I too think its a reasonable response. Maybe you should wait and see just what arrangements are put in place before assuming that Stagecoach are "at it". Accusing them of deliberately leasing a craft which predates the legislation justs sounds paranoid at this stage even if your past experience with these matters would lead you to believe it. Give them a chance to sort it out now that you have brought it to their attention.
cheers
ali

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 12 Jul 2007, 15:45

See GTT for my report

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 12 Jul 2007, 16:01

I'm not assuming, I'm not accusing and I am not paranoid. I can't put all the letters of the last two days up here, and didn't think I needed to. I sincerely hope Stagecoach do make appropriate alterations, and quickly, and I think there is a chance that they might now.

I wasn't a supporter of the hovercraft plan initially, but if trials are going ahead then I am keen they are done properly so we can all enjoy them. That was, however, supposed to mean access plans being part of the initial planning stage and integral to the scheme _before_ the council gave the go-ahead, or added funding contributions, so it's not entirely Stagecoach's fault.

I'd also like to believe progress might even give a few more people confidence to speak up without fear of being treated as though they're making an unreasonable fuss.

Post by **wangi** » 12 Jul 2007, 16:06

Rapunzell, I see nothing wrong with their response, indeed I see a frank and honest dialogue. This is a trial run for only two weeks. I see no evidence of them trying to get away from their moral responsibilities, just them pointing out they do not have a legal responsibility due to the age of the craft. Their response would seem to indicate commitment to ensuring access for all is the scheme does indeed become a reality. They know full well passengers / the community expects it.

The current facilities are temporary in nature, and not ideal. They are designed to support a trial run to ascertain if it is worthwhile to start a permanent service.

The weak link here is the steps up to the bus depot, and that's reasonably simple to fix with ramps if this scheme becomes permanent. However it is completely unrealistic work for a two week trial.

Often your responses and communication are aggressive and combative in nature. I do not think that's the most productive way to realise your ultimate goal. I totally support what you're trying to achieve.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Jul 2007, 16:44

wangi wrote:
The weak link here is the steps up to the bus depot,.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 12 Jul 2007, 19:00

It's long time since I had to read the DDA, and that was before it was amended, but there wasn't an absolute duty to provide equal access to services. The act was worded so that "reasonable" measures had to be taken, so excessive cost or inconvenience were legitimate grounds for not providing equal access. I think the act was tightened up but that's still the case. Also I'm pretty sure vehicles themselves were largely exempt from the regulations anyway.

So not providing full access is probably legal, for a short trial period at least. If it went to a full service then all the infrastructure around the service would have to comply but I think the hovercraft itself would still be exempt.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Jul 2007, 09:46

What's your favourite act?

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

Hovercraft / ferry service from Fife to Portobello?

Hovercraft feedback