Pitz/Powerleague site

[Porty]

It was stated during the meeting that a group of council officials had been measuring the Milton Road side of the Gof Course park to assess the suitability for Powerleague relocation. It was also stated that a group of council officials (presumably a different group) had suggested the Golf Course as a possible locaton for the new high school.

Could it be in 4 or 5 years from now the council have to offer Powerleague a few million to move out of the Golf Course in order to relocate the school?

[Bob Jefferson]

I think that it is the playing fields that are being suggested as a possible site for Powerleague and the Golf Course itself for the school. Of course this would mean finding a replacement golf course.

[Bob Jefferson]

Please note that an amended version of Lawrence's previous message has now been posted.

[Bob Jefferson]

From today's EN:

Fears over Porty green space 'loss'

I think the reporter in question was sitting opposite me, in which case she left sometime before the end.

[Bob Jefferson]

Lawrence's response - Letter to Editor

Dear Sir

Wednesday evening's public meeting in Portobello Town Hall (your report, 13 October) was, as always, very well attended - around 200 people in fact.

I was glad that we made progress regarding the provision of a new community centre and library and possible recreational uses on the current Power League site and the land adjacent to the Indoor Bowls Centre. The opportunities on offer are exciting. These developments are of fundamental importance to the local community and have been subject to much discussion over recent years.

You rightly report the other major issue raised at this meeting - how and where to build a new Portobello High School with playing fields. Following the failure of the school's bid for a place in the PPP2 round of school replacements and refurbishments there is currently no finance available for this important project which will cost of the order of £25m. Portobello High School is the largest school in the city and deserves better than its current facilities. One option raised by our officials is to build a new school on part of Portobello golf course - with playing fields. That justifiably raises concerns but it's not easy to think of other practicable solutions - at least for a one-site school with no requirement to travel to access sports facilities.

I have been open with the local community about this and, together with the other local councillors involved, I'm more than happy to add other suggestions to the equation. It's unlikely that finance will become available until at least the end of PPP2 - which hasn't even started yet. Maybe the local community will decide that a new school isn't worth the currently suggested sacrifice. It comes with no official stamp of approval. We live in a democracy and I regard myself as a representative. But I also have a responsibility to lay before the local community the many demands generated by all its various inhabitants, not all of which can have easy answers. It was in that spirit that I addressed the questions raised on this matter on Wednesday evening.

Yours sincerely

Councillor Lawrence Marshall

[Porty]

I think that it is the playing fields that are being suggested as a possible site for Powerleague and the Golf Course itself for the school.

Don't think we could get PL and a High School with playing fields on the golf course site. Its one or the other. St Thomas has its playing field on the roof, I believe.

Personally I think we should stop the mucking about and I agree with Dave Bonar. The kids are most important.

PHS was moved to its current site in 1964 without playing fields. Since that time, more and more land has been developed, so opportunities are less. If the requirement is a school alongside playing fields, in the current catchment area and ideally in the centre of the catchemnt area, then the Golf Course is the only option. Whether we can afford it now or 15 years from now it is the only option for a School plus playing fields. So lets establish that the new school is going to be there, stop the procrastinating and start dealing with the objections.

I agree with Lawrence that the PL site and PHS debate are seperate. However, if we are to have a new East Edinburgh sports centre to replace some of the lost facilities at Meadowbank. it would make more sense and be better used if it was on the same site as the new school IMHO.

[wangi]

And give Power League the old Freightliner terminal site between the HLR and railway...

[Porty]

And give Power League the old Freightliner terminal site between the HLR and railway...

My preference would be to give them more of the cash from the sale and get rid.

Do the council own the land at the freightliner terminal.

[Hawkeye]

As Bob has mentioned, I was at the Community Council meeting and was heartened by the great turnout on a damp October evening following little publicity. I don't feel I have anything else to add to the reports of events as I think most of the points have been covered by others.

However, I would like to endorse two points made by Susan Deacon – that the level of interest reflects the real interest that people of Portobello and Joppa have in their area and secondly that things take so long to happen and decisions have to be made.

Having said that, I'm not sure that Porty's suggestion that the high school should move to the golf course is the right decision without investigation of all the options and consultation on these. For instance, is the area south of the golf course used for playing fields now? I, for one, do not know what size a new school and playing fields would take – would there be any space left? Could the school be decanted to temporary accommodation in Figgate Park for rebuilding? But then we come up against Lawrence's argument of ‘destroys value with no capital receipt.' I don't know what bit of management gobbledegook this phrase comes from but I would have thought that if the school is in as bad a condition as reported then there is no value in the building.

All proposals are dependent on financing and it is clear that the rebuilding is only being considered after selling off some of the ‘silver' to pay for it. We are told that the probable cost is a quarter of the total annual capital spend for Edinburgh. Perhaps it has to be that the Council has to commit this level of expenditure because of the importance of replacing Edinburgh's largest school. And remember, with a project this large, the cost would be spread over two or three financial years. Maybe this is as good as it gets.

A last thought on losing our green open spaces. In the leader of the council's last report he emphasised the need for Craigmillar not only to retain its green spaces but to increase them. Does this not similarly apply to Portobello?

[wangi]

‘destroys value with no capital receipt.' I don't know what bit of management gobbledegook this phrase comes from but I would have thought that if the school is in as bad a condition as reported then there is no value in the building.

My understaning is...If a new school is built on another site then the existing site can be sold off for housing/£££ after completion. If the school is rebuilt on the existing site then nothing is sold off - there are no spoils to offset the building cost...

I think that's all he was meaning!

[Porty]

Having said that, I'm not sure that Porty's suggestion that the high school should move to the golf course is the right decision without investigation of all the options and consultation on these.

Until wednesday's meeting I had not appreciated that the unconditional objective was to relocate PHS with accompanying playing fields. If so, then there are no other options to investigate. Particularly when a central location in the catchment area is another given. The figgate park may be another option but to a layman like me the construction challenge would be too costly even if the space was big enough. BTW, a minor correction, it is not my suggestion to move the school to the golf course. Are there alternatives?

For instance, is the area south of the golf course used for playing fields now? I, for one, do not know what size a new school and playing fields would take – would there be any space left?

I don't know either but in a way it doesn't matter, if the School needs to go to the GC site it goes. We then work on the best layout and use of the space.

Bearing in mind the points made by John Ferrier and others. I believe the site would be big enough for playing fields, so those using the site for football at the moment could end up with better facilities than the sloping pitches they currently play on. Tough luck for the golfers, there is another council course less than a mile away, kids are more important. Dog walkers will be upset of course but I'd much rather they were inconvenienced than millions and i do mean millions of kids keep getting bussed either to and from school and/or to and from playing fields. Its a health and safety and enviromental no-brainer

Could the school be decanted to temporary accommodation in Figgate Park for rebuilding? But then we come up against Lawrence's argument of ‘destroys value with no capital receipt.' I don't know what bit of management gobbledegook this phrase comes from but I would have thought that if the school is in as bad a condition as reported then there is no value in the building.

I understand what Lawrence means. It seems if a project is to get off the ground it needs to have a stake and that stake has to be a receipt to the council coffers. It is harsh reality. To me, and I don't operate in a political minefield, the PHS project is further away from completion because the new school doesn't have an identity, a home, a location. If the community decides where they want it to be then its a massive step. If we can then attract money for say the new sports centre and from the sale of the existing site we are in with a chance of jumping the queue. We could also take direct action. Are we not one of the biggest and closest High Schools to the new £500 million Parliament?

All proposals are dependent on financing and it is clear . . . . Maybe this is as good as it gets.

I think this is as good as it gets, tragic as that may be.

A last thought on losing our green open spaces. In the leader of the council's last report he emphasised the need for Craigmillar not only to retain its green spaces but to increase them. Does this not similarly apply to Portobello?

It does apply but a new High School that will serve tens of thousands of kids and should be able to to leave some green open space has got to be a higher priority. A large open space is going to have to be sacrificed, agreed? It is a pity that the space has to be green but there are no suitable brown sites left,within the catchment area.

I would like to think that everyone is on the same side in this debate, I know that it is courtesy and good practice to go through the motions, but the motions have been going on too long. Let's cut to the chase. Take some decisons. We have shown we are good at stopping undesirable developments within our community. Can we show how good we are at starting desirable developments?

[karen]

What about.........building the new school on Edinburgh Leisure's Bowling club site on the prom. The school would be adjacent to the state-of-the-art Sporting complex proposed as a replacement for Meadowbank. The new sports complex could be built on the land the CEC have sold/intend to sell to Woodrow for housing. The youth zone would also be adjacent to both the school and the Sports complex.
I realise that there is no 'forthcoming capital' from this proposal but it makes sense to me. The CEC managed to find a fair amount of capital for their Congestion Zone's proposal. If they pulled in 'creative thinkers' could their budget - which appears to be a moveable feast - be reappraised for Portobello/Joppa's benefit?
This could provide this passionate and caring community with a 'joined up thinking' approach to youth provision incorporating education, sport and leisure.

[Porty]

Karen, the option you suggest is unfeasible.on almost every major requirement. Think your "creative thinkers" idea is a good one. I will stand.

[Gemini]

No money for Schools or essential services, but funds abundant for :

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/in ... 2095762005

[dccairns]

On the matter of the rebuilding of PHS the needs of dog walkers, golfers, etc are not mutually exclusive of those of school children; many school kids are dog walkers and golfers. We all need green spaces and the needs of the whole community need to be taken into account, not just those of school children.

If you look at the bigger picture, we are set to lose a whole lot of recreational facilities: the Richard Corsie bowling centre, Power League, Meadowbank stadium, Leith Waterworld and, potentially, Portobello golf course, a large, green open space used by a whole variety of people. This would be the loss of another facility close to the heart of Portobello.

It is not an absolute given that a new PHS has to have adjacent playing fields. Lawrence Marshall said at the meeting the other night that the golf course was the best option, in his view, IF there were to be adjacent playing fields. If PHS were to be rebuilt on its existing site, maybe there could be some playing field provision on the golf course site.

We are constantly being told that the economy is booming under New Labour; surely it is a bit of an indictment of this government that there is apparently no public money available to fund essential services like education.

Continually selling off land to pay for essential services is unsustainable. Where do we turn when the last recreational facility has been sold off and the last bit of green land has been tarmacked over?

We were told that we had no chance of winning the public inquiry and our best chance was to get into bed with DHP. That turned out to be wrong. Maybe TINA (there is no alternative - remember that?) to the new PHS being built on the golf course is also wrong.

The sad thing is that it is often officials with no knowledge of and no interest in communities who come up with easy, lazy solutions, just like the bright idea to relocate the library and community centre on the Power League site. The council traffic officials nearly condemned this community to permanent gridlock when they didn't properly scrutinise the superstore developer's traffic study. They didn't even bother to come down and have a look at the problems until we kicked up a stink about it. Let's not just accept what council officials say.

I believe we deserve better.

[Cynthia]

totally agree with you Diana - couldn't have put it better - there's plenty of money for war, ID cards, massive over policing at G8 etc etc but none for public services - something wrong with priorities here. But even getting away from national politics, a bit of imagination and consultation with the community would go a long way to helping find solutions. And we should not just grab the nearest green space or public building to sell off, to pay for new facilities, or go to the nearest private company to shore up the public services, when we end up having to buy them out, or paying rent for a public private building for 25 years.......Carla

[Epykat]

Very well put Diana. I agree with everything you've said. The people making the decisions don't give a monkeys about us, our community, our opinions, our school, our open spaces or our recreational facilities, they are purely interested any little bit of cash going into their coffers. By the time we get rid of this Council there will be nothing left in the way of green, open space in Portobello, or indeed, most of Edinburgh. And the thing that REALLY gets my goat is they way they keep trying to make us a) sound like we're moaning and b) feel ungrateful for what they're trying to 'give' us!

[Gemini]

Very well put Diana. I agree with everything you've said. The people making the decisions don't give a monkeys about us, our community, our opinions, our school, our open spaces or our recreational facilities, they are purely interested any little bit of cash going into their coffers. By the time we get rid of this Council there will be nothing left in the way of green, open space in Portobello, or indeed, most of Edinburgh. And the thing that REALLY gets my goat is they way they keep trying to make us a) sound like we're moaning and b) feel ungrateful for what they're trying to 'give' us!

And well put Epycat.

By the time we get rid of this Council/Government, there will be nothing left, full stop!

[wangi]

Guys, the councillors are asking for peoples opinions and other possible solutions...

[Gemini]

Guys, the councillors are asking for peoples opinions and other possible solutions...

I think it is well known to Lawrence (Portobello's Councillor) what public opinion is.

Question:

If CEC can compulsory purchase peoples homes - can they also compulsory purchase land owned by developers? if not - why not?

[Epykat]

Guys, the councillors are asking for peoples opinions and other possible solutions...

I really would like to believe that Wangi, but I don't think it's true. They might be ASKING for opinions and solutions but they're not listening to the answers. In my opinion they've ASKED so many times before (paddling pool, pitz site, Miami on the Beach......) and then we've been told "oops, sorry, don't have the funding for that etc, this is what you're getting" and it'll happen again with the golf course and the library. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

[Gemini]

With schools not meeting 'fit for purpose' standards.
Its pretty hard to swallow when TIE, can throw mi££ions
at this..

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinb ... 2112392005

Notwithstanding, the 8 mi££ion on the congestions charge's fiasco.

Nearly 25 mi££ion, enough to build a new PHS (in situ)

[wangi]

You can't just get the pick axes and shovels out, dig a trench and lay tram lines... Some sort of massive improvement to the transport to North Edinburgh is required to go hand-in-hand with the big developments taking place at Leith and Granton. And something's going to have to be done with the roads (A1-HLR-Leith-Granton) too.

We shouldn't think small, and nit pick - Edinburgh should be spending money and funding transport improvements in addition to education, entertainment, tourism, environment, ...

Think big.

[Porty]

Question:

If CEC can compulsory purchase peoples homes - can they also compulsory purchase land owned by developers? if not - why not?

Think they probably can but they don't have the money to do it and even if they did they are not in the property speculation business, its too risky.

[Porty]

....... By the time we get rid of this Council there will be nothing left in the way of green, open space in Portobello, or indeed, most of Edinburgh.....

As far as I can recall, Portobello has not "lost" a green open space in my lifetime.

[Gemini]

....... By the time we get rid of this Council there will be nothing left in the way of green, open space in Portobello, or indeed, most of Edinburgh.....

As far as I can recall, Portobello has not "lost" a green open space in my lifetime.

Nor in my lifetime, yet!
However, I believe that the old SP Site was once - after coal repository and pre SSEB, Green Space, info obtained, from 86 year old neighbour!
Mitchell Buildings, now demolished - had rear gardens - Green space.
Not sure what was on the, now Baileyfield Industrial Site?

Telferton - was Green space after pit was infilled - and before SP
flogged it.

Not one bit of green space at the west end of Portobello.

[Gemini]

Question:

If CEC can compulsory purchase peoples homes - can they also compulsory purchase land owned by developers? if not - why not?

Think they probably can but they don't have the money to do it and even if they did they are not in the property speculation business, its too risky.

Not informed enough about the 'property speculation business' so cannot comment on your answer.

Your first answer: they probably can, but don't have the money?

I should like to ask - 'Where do they find the money to finance TIE/ The Congestion Charge fiasco, and the consultants that are hired for this, that, and the next, + anything else you can think off?
But, When it comes to the essentials, e.g. schools, we have to choose
between green space or no place!




Recently reported ,Scottish Council's (including Edinburgh) had millions stashed in banks! maybe they have had to use this on yet more Feesability Studies and Consultant's Fee's?

[Porty]

Think they get that sort of money from the scottish executive and the EEU. Whereas some essential services, like Schools are funded from council revenue. Don't think its easy to transfer funds, I'm not arguing with you, i just don't know. I think Trams are bammy.

What I mean about property speculation? The council have a £100m capital budget. if they were to spend £10m buying the SP site and then could not punt it on at a profit, the city would be in serious poop. (I don't even know of they can legally speculate). If you remember about 5 or 6 years ago; Wandsworth and Western Highlands Councils decided to try their hands in the derivatives market, using cooncil funds. They lost about £40million between them with WHC losing their whole annual budget.

[Porty]

Not sure what was on the, now Baileyfield Industrial Site?

It was the glass works. Bailyfield is an improvement.

Not one bit of green space at the west end of Portobello.

Between your ears or is that more of a vacuum than a space?

[wangi]

Of course the council does have history of property development, having setup EDI to develop Edinburgh Park... But that's a different ball game to what we're discussing.

[Gemini]

Not sure what was on the, now Baileyfield Industrial Site?

It was the glass works. Bailyfield is an improvement.

Not one bit of green space at the west end of Portobello.

Between your ears or is that more of a vacuum than a space?

That's Rich, coming from someone with a head like a balloon - with about as much in it!

[Porty]

Firstly, it is not my intent to start another Porty v Dc debate.

On the matter of the rebuilding of PHS the needs of dog walkers, golfers, etc are not mutually exclusive of those of school children; many school kids are dog walkers and golfers. We all need green spaces and the needs of the whole community need to be taken into account, not just those of school children.

Agreed, but there has to be priorities and our school children currently attend a workplace that is unfit, unsafe and unhygenic. Whereas our dog walkers abound in relative luxury. Golf is rich sport and is amply provided for.

If you look at the bigger picture, we are set to lose a whole lot of recreational facilities: the Richard Corsie bowling centre, Power League, Meadowbank stadium, Leith Waterworld and, potentially, Portobello golf course, a large, green open space used by a whole variety of people. This would be the loss of another facility close to the heart of Portobello.

The development of the Golf Course facility could well end up in a net gain in recreational facilities for Portobello. Richard Corsie and Power League are/were private enterprises that don't work. Leith Waterworld has got sod all to do with the welfare pf PHS pupils.

It is not an absolute given that a new PHS has to have adjacent playing fields. ......If PHS were to be rebuilt on its existing site, maybe there could be some playing field provision on the golf course site.

I could hardly disagree more. Would you consider putting the maths or english departments on different sites? If playing fields are part of a school campus there is more chance that more kids will participate. (Just look at PHS Basketball performance) The emphasis is now on more PE not less, as it has been recognised that this has tremendous benefit on health and on learning ability. Seperate facilities means less teaching time, more travel time, more cost and more danger.

We are constantly being told that the economy is booming under New Labour; surely it is a bit of an indictment of this government that there is apparently no public money available to fund essential services like education.

Are you seriously suggesting that Labour have spent no money on public services?

Continually selling off land to pay for essential services is unsustainable. Where do we turn when the last recreational facility has been sold off and the last bit of green land has been tarmacked over?

We are nowhere near that stage and I serioulsy doubt that we ever will be. Our community has a great need. I think you are scaremongering.

Maybe TINA (there is no alternative - remember that?) to the new PHS being built on the golf course is also wrong.

Maybe? That's why we are having the debate. No-one has come forward with a feasible alternative. FOWTSA

Let's not just accept what council officials say.

I don't think anyone could accuse the majority us of doing that. Like I say, bring on the alternatives. We are all ears.

[Epykat]

....... By the time we get rid of this Council there will be nothing left in the way of green, open space in Portobello, or indeed, most of Edinburgh.....

As far as I can recall, Portobello has not "lost" a green open space in my lifetime.

I believe the site the school is currently on was playing fields? That's certainly been in your lifetime.

[dccairns]

Porty

You are quite right, I am not going to descend to your level of tit-for-tat, let's tear each other's posts apart style of debate.

There are plenty of alternatives. What is not acceptable is to have to choose between the alternatives of either a new school or a much needed, used and loved open space near the heart of Portobello. We should be able to have both.

PS Your reflexes seem to be slowing down. It's taken you about three days to respond.

[dccairns]

Here's a letter from today's Evening News on the subject.

City Fathers are not too logical

I thought it must be a belated April Fool when I read Councillor Marshall's proposal that the new Portobello High School be built on Portobello Golf Course (News, October 13). However, it seems this could be a serious proposition.

A new high school is of course required, but it must not be at the cost of losing this local amenity. What always appears unthinkable to Edinburgh citizens always seems to be totally logical to our City Fathers.

What next - Portobello beach sold to make way for houses on stilts with sea views? (I hope I have not given the council's consultants an idea for another high-cost feasibility study at our expense).

Please - leave this golf course and park alone.

Margaret Thomson, Durham Square, Edinburgh