New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[Sceptic]

If these allegations are true, then these people will have to be banned sine die from the CC. We cannot have threats of boycotts or embargoes made by those who, allegedly, are entrusted to represent Portobello People and Businesses. In addition, shop keepers who have had these threats made should report this to the Police. The Police may well say boycotts or embargoes are quite legal, but they have to be ,made aware of what is going on in their patch. Personally, I would name and shame, publicly. There you go, Fine Wines, put it in your window, "I was threatened by ........... from PPAG, if you want a new school, come inside and buy!"

[Chas]

If these allegations are true, then these people will have to be banned sine die from the CC. We cannot have threats of boycotts or embargoes made by those who, allegedly, are entrusted to represent Portobello People and Businesses...... Personally, I would name and shame, publicly. There you go, Fine Wines, put it in your window, "I was threatened by ........... from PPAG, if you want a new school, come inside and buy!"

Well said!

[seanie]

From: rtsuth@...
Subject: New High School
Sent: 7 Apr 2012 13:13

Just to be sure we are all aware of feelings that are currently running very high in the community we represent, I thought you might interested to know that people are saying that the 'New Portobello High School' Facebook page is advising supporters to boycott traders who do not have one of their posters in the window.
Also the Labour party were out canvassing on the High st yesterday, and, according to one trader, they were telling folk that if they don't accept the school on the park they will get flats instead.
Nice tactics
Ros Sutherland

Sent using BlackBerry from Orange

From: seanwatters@...
To: rtsuth@...
Subject:
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 23:43:12 +0000
Ros,

I understand you sent an e-mail containing the following earlier today? I wasn't copied in so if the quote is in anyway incorrect please let me know.

"Just to be sure we are all aware of feelings that are currently running very high in the community we represent, I thought you might interested to know that people are saying that the 'New Portobello High School' Facebook page is advising supporters to boycott traders who do not have one of their posters in the window."

When I heard of this I was a little taken aback. That anyone would threaten a boycott of traders simply over a poster is something that hadn't occurred to me. However, our Facebook site is open for people to comment so there's always the possibility that someone could suggest a boycott without us noticing it; the last few days have been somewhat busy.

I've looked briefly, and Bob Jefferson has checked more thoroughly, and neither of us have spotted comments advising supporters to boycott traders, and certainly no posts from site administrators to that effect. If you can highlight where this suggestion occurs we'd be keen to remove it; we certainly wouldn't condone any such action.

If you're not in a position to point us in the right direction could you let us know which "people are saying that the 'New Portobello High School' Facebook page is advising supporters to boycott traders" ? Then we could ask them to point us in the right direction.

Whatever disagreements there might be about the school I'm sure we agree that intimidating local businesses is beyond the pale, so any assistance would be much appreciated. Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Sean

> Subject: Fw: New High School
To: seanwatters@...
From: rtsuth@...
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 08:58:59 +0000

Sean
My apologies for not including you in the email, this was an oversight on my part. The comments were made by a shopper and by a trader in different shops. I haven't checked your Facebook page as the issue of concern for me was that these things were being said in the High St.
Ros

From: seanwatters@...
To: rtsuth@...
Subject: RE: New High School
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 09:22:31 +0000
Ros

Thanks for your prompt reply. However, I think this an extremely serious matter and we really need to get to the bottom of it. If anyone is intimidating or threatening local businesses with a boycott, that is simply appalling.

Could you clarify who this shopper and trader were so we can find out what they were referring to?

I'd like to resolve this as a matter of urgency.

Thanks

Sean

From: seanwatters@...
To: rtsuth@...
Subject: FW: New High School
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 21:09:39 +0000
Ros

If you can help with this it would be very much appreciated. You've raised a very serious issue.

Either we've overlooked something on our Facebook site that has somehow triggered this, in which case we'd like to remove it as quickly as possible, or else someone appears to have started a malicious rumour.

I understand that Diana Cairns advised Nick Stroud that our Facebook site did indeed contain such comments, and I know that Cllr Hawkins approached at least one local businessman on Saturday to say that such a boycott had been threatened.

Perhaps Stephen or Diana could assist you in finding out where the idea of a boycott came from?

Again, any help in getting to the bottom of this would be very welcome.

Regards

Sean

Subject: Re: New High School
To: seanwatters@...
From: rtsuth@...
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:52:55 +0000

Sorry Sean, I don't know the names.
Sent using BlackBerry from Orange

From: sean watters (seanwatters@...)
Sent: 12 April 2012 17:44:22
To: rtsuth@...; diana@...; stephen.hawkins@edinburgh.gov.uk
Ros, Diana, Stephen:

I've copied nobody else into this.

PFANS has never encouraged anyone to boycott local traders. We know that two traders removed our posters after complaints, but we take no issue with that; we have no desire to cause difficulties to local businesses.

And having looked thoroughly we can find no trace of any comments on our Facebook page encouraging a boycott. The suggestion that we were doing so is a baseless and unpleasant rumour.

Whilst it’s impossible to pinpoint how this rumour started, we at least have some idea how it was spread; by you Ros in your widely circulated e-mail; by you Diana in an e-mail to Nick Stroud; and by you Stephen when talking to a local businessman on Saturday.

I don’t find that acceptable.

I suggest you issue a statement acknowledging that PFANS has done no such thing and apologise for any misunderstanding if the impression was given that we had. You don't have to apologise personally, just post something on your website and your Facebook page. The stuff that's being posted by Save Porty Park at the moment is poisonous so remove that too.

Do that and I'll let the matter lie and make sure it's not mentioned again.

Sean

[Porty]

The local businessman whom Stephen Hawkins talked to was Clive Andrew, owner of Shapes Hairdresser. He donated an empty shop, formerly Southfield stationers, to PFANS, to allow us to display posters. I spoke to Clive face to face and I'm taking a risk divulging what he said to me. It is a risk but I'm fairly sure that Clive will not take umbrage or offence. And he will repeat what he told me, if required. I strongly suggest that Brenda Moloney contacts Clive and gets the truth from the horse's mouth. He can no doubt shed some light on who spoke to other traders, causing them to remove our posters. Most of the "victims" are advertisers in the Portobello Reporter and earn a living on PHS.

Stephen visited Shapes unannounced on Saturday April 7th in the morning. He advised Clive that the school issue is controversial and by allowing PFANS posters to be displayed in the empty shop that he owns, it had the potential to affect his hairdressing business.

Clive sent Stephen packing, saying something along the lines of "the shop is lying empty, how could it affect my hairdressing business?" Clive was right of course, what percentage of Portobello citizens are aware that Clive owns the shop in question? Almost zero I'd wager but Cllr Hawkins does.. Stephen picked the wrong guy to put the frighteners on. perhaps he had more success with other traders?

As an aside Clive;is the Portobello Traders rep for PCC. The traders group has been inactive for over a year. nevertheless he is a Portobello community councillor and some of you may wish to contact him directly to affirm your support for ALL local traders- whether pro, neutral or anti school.

There are other who can authenticate Stephen's visit to Clive but its up to them whether they wish to go public.

[Makaveli]

Shocking to read all that above!!!

I think the main players at the PCC really have been shamed themselves with these tactics.

[Bob Jefferson]

I think that it is very important that we establish the truth of what has happened here. I can understand why traders might feel reluctant to attend a public meeting, but a simple statement would suffice. I would suggest that perhaps Sarah Woodford, the Town Manager for Leith and Portobello, might be the person to get to the bottom of this.

[Mark Cameron]

Just added a post on the save Porty park Facebook page linking to this thread. Surely Stephen Hawkins will want to formally answer these claims.

Porty -do you have an email address for Clive as I'd like to send my support and can reiterate id not boycott any traders based on their views on this matter. As a community we have all got to move on from this once the work starts on the new school.

[tufty]

I am almost speechless reading these emails. Surely any representative in a community council shown to be spreading such rumours without knowing names to collaborate the truth is not fit to remain in a position of trust. It is the sort of behaviour I see amongst bitching school girls who are not mature enough to understand the effects of lies and hearsay. You cannot possibly use tittle-tattle as the basis of an email campaign to question or damage the reputation of a group.
Also to use your position to threaten a trader?!
Is there a motion to call for removal of such members, surely you cannot lie, misrepresent or bully, then continue to sit in a place of trust.

[Lashylass]

Local shopkeepers are putting their own posters up Betty - they don't have to be coerced. And local parents will note which ones are supporting us.

The above quote from Bob Jefferson implies that local parents will support the shops with posters up. Does that mean they should boycott all the others? Think about the statement and what is implied.

[Mark Cameron]

Surprised to find my comments over the last few days have now been removed from save Porty park Facebook page. Seems they've maybe revised their openness policy?

I'd really like to hear Stephen Hawkins take on the events outlined above to reach a balanced view.

[wangi]

I'd really like to hear Stephen Hawkins take on the events outlined above to reach a balanced view.

He is (for a couple of weeks) one of your elected Council representatives. I would suggest Edinburgh Council as a means of contact.

L/

[Sceptic]

To paraphrase The Bard; "something is rotten in the State of Portobello". Rumour, counter-rumour,allegations, spin and propaganda.

Meanwhile the Children of Portobello continue to learn in sub standard accomodation.

No-one wins, everyone loses. Will the first loser be truth?

[Lashylass]

Why is everyone silent when Bob Jefferson's comments are quoted? Could it be you're all speechless because he is accusing PPAG of doing something he was already guilty of? Mmmmmm makes you think doesn't it? Is everyone scared of him?

[Makaveli]

It may well imply what you say but it does not say that there is going to be a boycott of stores does it?

The two accusations are totally different.

[Maria]

Local shopkeepers are putting their own posters up Betty - they don't have to be coerced. And local parents will note which ones are supporting us.

The above quote from Bob Jefferson implies that local parents will support the shops with posters up. Does that mean they should boycott all the others? Think about the statement and what is implied.

Only Bob can say what he is implying. You Lashylass are simply inferring and wrongly IMHO.

[Sceptic]

Ever heard of Rashomon?

It's where everone takes something different out of a statement because of their own experiences, personal bias and prejudices.

It's what we seem to heave here.

When clarity is need, clarity is the last thing we get.

[seashell]

I didn't respond to your post for one reason and one reason only. And that reason has nothing to do with Bob.

I can't speak for anyone else on here (unlike PPAG, who purport to do just that, without any factual evidence to back this claim up - like so many of their 'facts') but perhaps, like me, they have taken note of the tenor and content of your previous posts?

[rmolehusband]

Why is everyone silent when Bob Jefferson's comments are quoted? Could it be you're all speechless because he is accusing PPAG of doing something he was already guilty of?

No, and asking the question as you do suggests either an incredible degree of stupidity, or a desperate desire to discredit Bob Jefferson, on your part. There is a world of difference between Bob making the comment he did and the idea a group of actually organising a boycott and then going round shops threatening the shopkeepers with said boycott. Get a sense of perspective.

[Lashylass]

Absolutely no difference at all. It does however show that nobody is brave enough to challenge the statement he made on here.

[wangi]

It does however show that nobody is brave enough to challenge the statement he made on here.

You sure? You did.

[Makaveli]

But it is so different - they are so different that only someone with an agenda wouldn't be able to see that.

[SoupDragon]

I've been lurking on this thread for sometime
I feel I have to respond to a statement made
I must admit it made me laugh out loud and spray tea over my keyboard

I'm not scared of Bob Jefferson

[Puerto bella]

I'm not scared of Bob Jefferson

Me too....everytime he says hello in the street and has a blether I always think - he's so scary, not. Get a grip Lashy. Some folk in this are losing the plot.

Can I also say for clarification that the councillors aren't 'on' the community council - they go along to it but they're not 'on' it. As a very wise old friend of mine says: they should keep their face in their own dish.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read somewhere on here that none of the commuity councillors were elected onto the CC - they are all self appointed - some are individuals and some on behalf of groups.

I personally think there should be a limit to how long anyone can serve on these things - fresh blood badly needed here and it shouldnt be a wee club for you and your pals to decide things on the basis of that wee group's values, ideas and experiences - so incredibly unrepresentative of any community.

[Paxetamor]

It's funny (if it wasn't so pathetic) that every time somebody posts anything that you find not to your liking it is branded stupid, moronic, idiotic etc. When really, I think the word you should be levelling at Bob is hypocrite. By the way, does the poster with the hectarage totals take into account the work currently being carried out at Jewel Park? I'm not sure what they're doing there but it seems to cover a large area of the park. I'm sure there is somebody out there that can enlighten me.

[Porty]

I'm sure there is somebody out there that can enlighten me.

Oh how I wish there was someone out there who could enlighten you but I'm afraid you are destined for disappointment.

Realistically, and I don't wish to come over too harsh; enlightenment doesn't appear to be an attainable objective, at least as far as your concerned.

As i've said previously: you are not a moron. you did propose a site for a new high school and you did say it was idyllic. the site was; smaller than the existing site, on the edge of catchment, on the most perilous side of milton road but worst of all, it wasn't available.

I believe that most people, on evaluating your proposal, would describe it as moronic. I'm with them but it doesn't make you an out and out moron, try just a teeny, weanie bit harder. It's within your grasp, carpe diem., paxetamor

[rmolehusband]

... every time somebody posts anything that you find not to your liking it is branded stupid, moronic, idiotic etc.

You're confusing causality with correlation. When someone posts something that is clearly "stupid, moronic, idiotic etc". then it is likely that it will be branded stupid, moronic, idiotic etc. Your post is a very good example of this. The post is stupid whether it is to my liking or not, there is no causal link there.

There is however an apparent correlation based on a causal link in the other direction. When someone posts something as crass as some of the recent postings about Bob, then I do tend to find them not to my liking.

[joeshmoe]

I dont know why the shopkeepers would be bothered about losing business from the ten supporters of PPAG who probably dint shop in Portobello anyway (too far beneath them)

[Puerto bella]

Regardless of all of the above....
Please think again PPAG......just because you are in a position to test the system doesnt mean you should.....
People will think no less of you if you call it a day.

[wangi]

http://www.facebook.com/new.phs.park/po ... 0125711148

Look at the bigger picture:

A 25 metre swimming pool for use by classes and clubs out of school hours; a large gym/dance studio/fitness equipment open to the community out of school hours; two full-size, all weather pitches - accessible out of school hours for local children to enjoy free of charge; a big Assembly Hall and fully-equipped theatre available for use by the community.

This fantastic new school will not just benefit the children of Portobello, but the whole community! Folk will still be able to walk dogs, go for a run and enjoy the open spaces offered by the golf course. It's a no-brainer. Build our School Now!

[Mark Cameron]

Excerpt from Save Porty Park's facebook page. I'd posted some comments on this initially which were not deleted and remained on view for around a week. I then posted at the weekend to draw attention to the post by Seanie and Porty and to ask for an apology that they saw fit to claim my comments on the Scotsman website were defamatory.
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Save Porty Park More defamatory comments on the Scotsman website from Stevie Mac and mcdryburn (whoever they are), falsely claiming that PPAG have been putting pressure on Portobello traders or even threatening them to remove the PFANS posters. However, note the veiled threat in this posting by PFANS member Bob Jefferson: "And local parents will note which ones [shops] are supporting us".

The person or persons who put up these posters are at fault for putting the shopkeepers in an invidious position. This attempt to drag the traders into the debate seems to be part of a deeply cynical move to split the community from top to bottom."


Avril ScottTotally agree. The only people 'splitting the community' are the hardcore at TP.

Liz Henderson And the people who are fixated on residents that weren't born in Portobello? - they're not helping either.

Save Porty Park I didn't make any comment about people not being born in Portobello. You know a lot of PFANS supporters didn't grow up in the area. Where did you grow up? It isn't meant to be a detrimental statement. I'm just saying that they have no connection with the park/golf course. Some PFANS have actually been quite honest about this and admitted it. I also mean that some don't know the history. Did you know that Edinburgh Council promised never to build on Portobello Park and keep it only for recreational purposes when they took over from private ownership? This is some of the history that I'm talking about. The history that I suspect a lot of PFANS aren't aware of.
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What the hell does this issue have to do with where people are from/grew up? Are PPAG now trying to implement a 'no outsiders' policy or should us 'incomers' be made to sit a history test before being allowed to move to the area? As I said in the Facebook comment that was deleted- If as a species we were so concerned with preserving history we'd still be living in caves and hunting our food!

Most reasonable people don't want to see green space go and I wish PPAG would accept that that is the position of the majority.

However when a rigourous and transparent process has been undertaken (and challenged unsuccefully) most reasonable people would see the bigger picture and even if there were a few with nimby-goggles on they'd weigh up the feeling of the council, courts and community and accept change and see the good that will come from that change for the community for years to come.

I'm still waiting for the apology from Save Porty Park for claiming my comments were defamatory however if they drop the appeal I'd be willing to forget about the apology.

[Porty]

I dont know why the shopkeepers would be bothered about losing business from the ten supporters of PPAG who probably dint shop in Portobello anyway (too far beneath them)

Shopkeepers don't know what level of support PPAG have.

However, they do know indivduals like Stephen Hawkins and Diana Cairns, they remember the good work they did back in PCAT's days. When they come calling about a quite different cause, shopkeepers would natturally assume they hold a lot of sway with Portobello consumers, particularly if veiled threats are made. And if someone approaches a shopkeeper, claiming to represent Portobello Community Council , it could also be a powerful persuader.

[rmolehusband]

What the hell does this issue have to do with where people are from/grew up?

It crops up every now and again, shades of League of Gentlemen - 'this is a local park for local people'. Months back there was some idiot on the PPAG facebook page challenging Seannie's right to be involved as he apparently hadn't lived in the area for long enough. To be fair to PPAG, I think it's a line only taken by the lunatic fringes of the organisation, such as this recent post from the Facebook page....

...and those that do [want the new school to go on the park] are those that have children who will be educated at Portobello High school.Of these people, a large proportion do not originate from Portobello and could just as quickly move out of the area as they did moving in.(No hard feelings I hope Geoff). My family are from Portobello and my daughter is fifth generation in my family to attend Towerbank primary.

[wangi]

http://www.facebook.com/new.phs.park/po ... 3702236457

Hello, I have just signed your petition. I really appreciate the wording of the petition where it calls for us to re-build our community. I can see from many posts here that there is still a lot of bad feeling on this side of the debate. I totally understand your frustration and I suppose there is still something of a battle to be won. But if the community is to be healed after this divisive experience, one side of the debate is going to have to suck it up and be rather statesman-like about it. To put it bluntly, stop squabbling about being barred from websites etc (or limit this to a private forum) and show us all that you do see the bigger picture. Thank you for bringing your campaign to my attention. Best wishes.

Please listen to the good lady.

L/

[Porty]

Clare Koïta.....
Please listen to the good lady.

L/

Hang on, not so quick, what if she's only lived in porty for ten years?

[Pal of Porty]

Local shopkeepers are putting their own posters up Betty - they don't have to be coerced. And local parents will note which ones are supporting us.

The above quote from Bob Jefferson implies that local parents will support the shops with posters up. Does that mean they should boycott all the others? Think about the statement and what is implied.

I agree that Bob Jefferson's last sentence is a bit clumsy and does leave itself open to interpretation. One thing that does not leave itself open to interpretation however is the substantive evidence that proves PPAG members have threatened traders with a boycott of their trade unless they take down the PFANS posters. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that PFANS members have threatened a boycott, despite the best efforts of Ros and Diana to make it appear as though they have done so.