New Portobello High School - PPAG win legal appeal

[wangi]

There has been extensive damage to the Assembly Hall roof overnight as a result of high winds. The roof needs to be made safe to ensure that debris does not cause injury. It is not practicable to re-route pupils and staff due to the high volume of traffic. As a result, the school is to close for the day to allow contractors to render the area safe. Please listen to Radio Forth in the morning. There will be a message if the school is not to re-open. Assume business as usual otherwise.

[Pal of Porty]

Porty High school kids have been sent home at the end of the first period. Wonder how many other secondary schools have had to send their kids home.

[commander114]

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[Pal of Porty]

S5 is a difficult enough year for pupils without them having to lose a precious days teaching due to the condition of their school building. If Miss PoP now fails her Highers I am going to sue the main protanogists of PPAG.

[Maria]

As Scoop noticed, the Holyrood High building does sort of use ‘stilts‘. That block of accomodation that I pictured could have been placed higher or on the ground.

It isn't clear from the photo, but that area is a secure area for bikes. It is contained within wire fencing and has a gate, which is locked during the school day.

I also recall that specific block was designed, so that additional accommodation could be created in the future if required.

[wangi]

Commander, what you're missing is that we have had many 1000s of posts on this. Years ago many alternatives were discussed. No one wants to build on open space, but it's the "least worst" option.

Proposals to build a school on the award winning Figgate Park, which is truly well used by the community, are not realistic. That's before even considering flooding, old clay beds, felling loads of mature trees and compulsory purchase of houses (as your proposal would require). I'm sorry, but what do you expect such a proposal to generate other than negative feedback? As for massive civil engineering over the East coast Mainline and working railway yards - we must be aware that we are but one part of Edinburgh - other areas must also have appropriate education resources so we cannot blow the entire budget (+++masses more) on ours.

The self-interest of the few should not be able to dictate the future of a school in our community. There are plenty of legal & legislative approaches which will allow a new Portobello High School to be built on Portobello Park to the benefit, and with the support of, the vast majority of this community.

L/

[Pal of Porty]

........Ideas are what are needed, not knee-jerk reactions just because you can‘t see the potential.....

I could not agree more and that is why I have been extremely impressed with some of the excellent ideas and strategy development that has emerged from some recent PFANS meetings - very positive, constructive and wholly aligned behind a common objective. I suggest that you do not confuse what is written on this forum with the reality of what is being pursued in the real world.

[wangi]

Photo of roof damage at http://instagram.com/p/P_Y6GCSiNa/

[rmolehusband]

I went to last Friday's meeting on the town hall. Myself and some 300 other interested folk sat around with maps and looked at all of the identified alternative sites. We considered some fairly 'out there' ways of achieving a school on these sites - though to be fair nothing as crazy as commander's second suggestion involving emptying and flattening down a rather nice Victorian terrace.

So, like most folks I suspect, I have considered the alternatives. Having done so, like most folks, I still strongly believe that the park is the only viable place for the new school and have asked my elected representatives to take every possible action and to leave no stone unturned in order to get the school built, as agreed, on the park. I have also made my feelings clear on what contingency I feel they should look at - plan 'B' as you call it.

Now, Epykay, be so good as to explain to me again why a small minority should be allowed to stand in the way of our community doing what it has already decided, in a democratic way, that it wants to do with its land?

[rathbone]

I suggest that you do not confuse what is written on this forum with the reality of what is being pursued in the real world.

In which case I must apologise unreservedly to Stephen for my earlier tirade, and not attribute to him the actions of his unreal on-line persona.

Wouldn't it have been politer, and saved a lot of everyone's time, if people just explained that there has been considerable previous discussion of alternatives and pointed the commander to the appropriate threads, rather than slagging off his suggestions ad nauseum.

It would also be sensible to share the excellent, very positive and constructive ideas which have emerged from the recent PFANS meetings instead of just condemning other people's as 'nothing substantive'.

[AndyK]

In the years I've been following this debate I don't think the alternatives proposed by the commander have ever been considered - which is why people were drawn into commenting on the potential drawbacks e.g. knocking down Hamilton Terrace, building on Figgate Park, etc

[Epykat]

Now, Epykay, be so good as to explain to me again why a small minority should be allowed to stand in the way of our community doing what it has already decided, in a democratic way, that it wants to do with its land?

That would be because in a democractic society we have laws and rules that people have to follow to maintain order. At the moment what you want to do is against the laws/rules so until that changes you can't do it. Simples.

[lg1726]

That would be because in a democractic society we have laws and rules that people have to follow to maintain order. At the moment what you want to do is against the laws/rules so until that changes you can't do it. Simples.

However, as pointed out previously we live in a democratic society and we are governed by legislative bodies and in the UK, whether it is by reserved or devolved powers and legislators, it is still parliament(s) that make the laws, that decide what those laws will be. Judges interpret the law, but they do not make the law. In a democratic society the legislator, parliament decides and makes the law to uphold the will of the electorate - simples!

[Pal of Porty]

In which case I must apologise unreservedly to Stephen for my earlier tirade, and not attribute to him the actions of his unreal on-line persona.

You attribute what you want to Stephen, my comments are based on my own views and have nothing to with Stephen or indeed anyone else.

[Epykat]

That would be because in a democractic society we have laws and rules that people have to follow to maintain order. At the moment what you want to do is against the laws/rules so until that changes you can't do it. Simples.

However, as pointed out previously we live in a democratic society and we are governed by legislative bodies and in the UK, whether it is by reserved or devolved powers and legislators, it is still parliament(s) that make the laws, that decide what those laws will be. Judges interpret the law, but they do not make the law. In a democratic society the legislator, parliament decides and makes the law to uphold the will of the electorate - simples!

In that case the Council should appeal if they think that's the next step. At the moment, before they've appealed, or if they decide not to appeal, or nobody can prove the land isn't CG, the school isn't going on your preferred site.

[Pal of Porty]

It would also be sensible to share the excellent, very positive and constructive ideas which have emerged from the recent PFANS meetings...

Why? None of them include what seems to be termed as Plan B on this forum.

.. condemning other people's as 'nothing substantive'.

I don't think I have been doing too much condemning on here.

[Pal of Porty]

In that case the Council should appeal if they think that's the next step. At the moment, before they've appealed, or if they decide not to appeal, or nobody can prove the land isn't CG, the school isn't going on your preferred site.

Just as it was going on the Park after the first court judgement.

[lg1726]

the school isn't going on your preferred site.

You have assumed what my preference might be - you have ranted and raved on this forum for the last few days appearing to use it as your own personal mouthpiece! Any alternative post seems to give you oxygen to begin again, but as my old dad would have said - empty barrels make the most noise.

Off you go and make your noise, but do not presume to know me, my motives, my views and to make such a statement is to personalise this "debate" and is, in my opinion out of order.

[Betty Windsor]

In that case the Council should appeal if they think that's the next step. At the moment, before they've appealed, or if they decide not to appeal, or nobody can prove the land isn't CG, the school isn't going on your preferred site.

Just as it was going on the Park after the first court judgement.

Lady Dorrian didn't give a judgement because of Mora (delay) she only gave an opinion on the merits of the case. That is why PPAG's legal team believed they had such a strong case, rightly as it turned out.
My understanding is that the council would need permission to appeal the decision, not sure on what grounds they would be able to do that, but as the judgement was unanimous things not so straightforward.

[Epykat]

the school isn't going on your preferred site.

You have assumed what my preference might be - you have ranted and raved on this forum for the last few days appearing to use it as your own personal mouthpiece! Any alternative post seems to give you oxygen to begin again, but as my old dad would have said - empty barrels make the most noise.

Off you go and make your noise, but do not presume to know me, my motives, my views and to make such a statement is to personalise this "debate" and is, in my opinion out of order.

If it's not your preferred site then you only have to say so. My assumption was based on your previous posts regarding NIMBYS - maybe I picked you up wrong. If my posts upset you so much then just don't read them. That's what I do when I'm bored of it all.

[commander114]

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[wangi]

Rmolehusband shame on you ! What a misleading suggestion “ though to be fair nothing as crazy as commander's second suggestion involving emptying and flattening down a rather nice Victorian terrace. “ You attributed that to me…. Bit of a Porty Pie that you completely invented to discredit....yourself actually.

Bzzz... Howabout you take a look at what you actually drew first time round: http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?p=95128#p95128 - that's your biro where Hamilton Terrace is...

And are you really taking a photo of google maps, and then editing that?!

And your cutout isn't even the full PHS site...

Come on!

[commander114]

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[wangi]

By "come on" I'm implying you're taking the piss. Your image is trying to show the "super site" at the east end of Figgate Park is twice the size of the current PHS. But you've only cookie-cut out half of the PHS site to use as your illustration. Try blocking out an appropriate size of land for the new high school - see what that does to the rest of the wonderful Figgate Park.

Plus we are meant to be psychic on your earlier drawing and automatically know that 2 biro boxes are a school, but another identical one isn't, it's just terraced houses...

This isn't Art Attack!

[Franck]

By "come on" I'm implying you're taking the piss. Your image is trying to show the "super site" at the east end of Figgate Park is twice the size of the current PHS. But you've only cookie-cut out half of the PHS site to use as your illustration. Try blocking out an appropriate size of land for the new high school - see what that does to the rest of the wonderful Figgate Park.

Plus we are meant to be psychic on your earlier drawing and automatically know that 2 biro boxes are a school, but another identical one isn't, it's just terraced houses...

This isn't Art Attack!

Not even half, looks about a third to me.

Anyone who suggests The figgie as an alternative to the football pitches on the golfie are mentalists...even my suggestion of a split campus with the quarry and the existing school ( which was made tongue in cheek) was better.

[fresian]

So are you suggesting that it is okay to build on a park and lose green space, as long as it is next to someone else's house?,

[commander114]

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[commander114]

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[Porty]

There really are a number of ways to provide a lot of school accomodation on that strip of land without hugely affecting the park. The bits I superimposed on the right of the park give you an indication of scale in relation to the existing tower and the space available.

In hectares- how big is the strip of land you refer to?

[AndyB]

I'm sorry Commander but I really do think that your ideas are nuts. Liking the drawings but your cut and paste efforts are terrible. Are you not for saving green space or is it just green space close to your home? Figgy Park is well used by a lot of different people because it is a very nice space. Porty Park one the other hand is hardly used except for a few dog walkers and would provide an excellent area for this and future generations educational needs. The idea of a school on stilts is bizarre but I like the out of box thinking. There is a budget and having worked for rail track more than a few years ago the cost involved in moving the tracks and signalling would be astronomical. The costs of penatly charges from the train operating companies would also need to be factored in. Then we would need money to actually build the school.

Save Porty Park but use Figgy Park instead......unfreaking believable.

[rmolehusband]

After long and diligent consideration here is my Plan B. It's a sustainable underground formation featuring landscaped gardens, a snorkel to provide ventilation to the underground science labs and a wind turbine to generate power.

[Bob Jefferson]

That's the most plausible Plan B I've seen yet.

[Pal of Porty]

After long and diligent consideration here is my Plan B.

Love it

[Pal of Porty]

In that case the Council should appeal if they think that's the next step. At the moment, before they've appealed, or if they decide not to appeal, or nobody can prove the land isn't CG, the school isn't going on your preferred site.

Just as it was going on the Park after the first court judgement.

Lady Dorrian didn't give a judgement because of Mora (delay) she only gave an opinion on the merits of the case. That is why PPAG's legal team believed they had such a strong case, rightly as it turned out.
My understanding is that the council would need permission to appeal the decision, not sure on what grounds they would be able to do that, but as the judgement was unanimous things not so straightforward.

My guess would be that they will mark an appeal.

[tufty]

All the biscuits, bread and eggs were used up by the time I got home today, 3 teenagers home from a damaged school yet again. The building is just past it's sell by date and I'm sick at the thought of the council tax money that is going to go on repairs when it should be closed already.

I do want to use this forum to thank Portobello Staff for the way they managed today. They made sure 1200 children left suddenly, safely and without fuss. They kept them away from any possible danger, a job teachers will do when they have to, just not usually on a September Tuesday.

All the nonsense I've read above is shameful, especially new posters who have suddenly felt the need to join the debate when they have apparently won.

My kids enjoy school, have great friends and stopped moaning about toilets, cold, wind and drips ages ago, just because it's old news, not because it doesn't bother them. I had hoped they would experience a warm, modern and exciting school fit for the present and future needs.

I am glad they are experiencing good teaching, great friends and extra curricular activites, supported by Peigi and her staff. we all need to remember that as the fight for the new school continues.