New Portobello High School - PPAG Judicial Review

[Chas]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

They are indeed entitled to their views, but in a democratic society, we should be entitled to expect them to back down when they see they are in the minority.

[Franck]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

They are indeed entitled to their views, but in a democratic society, we should be entitled to expect them to back down when they see they are in the minority.

Tell that to the conservative party!

[Chas]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

They are indeed entitled to their views, but in a democratic society, we should be entitled to expect them to back down when they see they are in the minority.

Tell that to the conservative party!

[wangi]

https://twitter.com/#!/EwanAitken/statu ... 4455326720

@EwanAitken
green group proposal on portobello school site to be kept as a park rejected by administration #edincouncil

[Sceptic]

Despite everyone's best intentions, tonight WILL get heated and nasty. It is in the nature of the beast to do so. People have been going on too long and have been too involved to back down, regardless of their views. As I have said before, if the PCC had put it's foot down and shown a bit of leadership, we might have avoided this.The end result will be one side or another going off in fine temper, vowing never to return.
What will the end result be? The school will be built on the park. There is too much riding on it for it not to happen.
The sooner PPAG see this and stop tilting at windmills, the better. They will not win.

[wangi]

...
If the report is approved at the Council meeting next week, the only remaining obstacle to work beginning immediately will be PPAG's court appeal.

The full report can be found at http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/me ... gh_council

Councillors have just voted on this - voted to appropriate common good land at Portobello Park so new high school can be built ASAP. 54 for the report; 3 Greens for their addendum; Hawkins absented himself.

The Greens proposal on the current Portobello High School site to be retained as open space was rejected by the administration.

[Chas]

Hawkins absented himself.

Obviously doesn't know what to do...

[lg1726]

Despite everyone's best intentions, tonight WILL get heated and nasty. It is in the nature of the beast to do so. .

I have no doubt that you are right and that it will get nasty, sadly. Like many who have an interest in this whole matter, I for the most part have been supportive of the PFANS campaign, although not active nor vocal. I have followed each step, each twist and turn. However, the decision by PPAG to appeal the judicial review was for me the point at which enough was enough. Since taking more of an interest and paying closer attention to the issues via this and other routes, I have become incensed and deeply offended by some of the comments made, in the main, by PPAG members and in particular those aimed at us "incomers". In addition, along with their censorship of any challenges to their position and the subsequent removal of such posts on their FB page does smack somewhat of desperation, but it it is still very offensive, deeply disturbing and highly divisive. We can live here, spend our money in the local shops etc. and support the economy and educate our children in the local schools, but not have a voice!

Fascism - "any movement, ideology, or attitude that favours dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism." Hmmm.....

[Doris]

Posted on PPAG facebook site yesterday:

A report goes to Edinburgh Council tomorrow disclosing that the construction price for the new PHS on Portobello Park is £26million, and they state that represents a saving of £5million off the budget, so the budget for the build phase must have been £31million. The original budget for the school was £41million. So what is the other £10million being spent on? Could be fees for consultants etc but it is a huge sum of money for a council who are quibbling about legal fees for the court case. A bit of transparency would be good.

[rmolehusband]

I hope tonight doesn't get too nasty.Whatever you think of the stance taken by PPAG, they are entitled to air their views.

Bear with me on this one, but tonight's meeting isn't really about the school as such. Any debate on the rights, wrongs or otherwise of building the school on the park are utterly irrelevant. The only views PPAG, or PFANS, or anyone for that matter, should be giving is on the strength of support within the community for the current school proposal.

That is the only one real point for debate as far as the CC is concerned - 'is the support within the community for this proposal strong enough that the CC should end it's neutrality and support it'. To me, the existence of the meeting itself and the petition put the matter beyond debate - yes.

Once this is decided then the CC must take any action it can to support the project, including formally asking PPAG to drop their appeal.

[seanie]

The Greens proposal on the current Portobello High School site to be retained as open space was rejected by the administration.

One problem with the Green addendum was that it wasn't competent. It called on the Council to designate the golf course as a Jubilee Park, but it's not within the Council's power to do that. It can only suggest parks for Fields I'n Trust to consider.

And as one of the Lib Dem Cllrs pointed out, the Council, including the Greens, have already approved a list of parks to be considered for this. If the Greens wanted the golf course included, they should really have been paying attention when they voted on the list.

[Franck]

Fascism - "any movement, ideology, or attitude that favours dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism." Hmmm.....

[Chas]

Bear with me on this one, but tonight's meeting isn't really about the school as such... That is the only one real point for debate as far as the CC is concerned - 'is the support within the community for this proposal strong enough that the CC should end it's neutrality and support it'. To me, the existence of the meeting itself and the petition put the matter beyond debate - yes.

Absolutely. I hope those who [are permitted to] speak at tonights meeting remember that and don't let it be sidetracked or dismissed on a point of order.

[seanie]

The PPAG deputation also tried to invoke the PCC survey as evidence that the community didn't support the proposed High School.

The figures they quoted were actually wrong. I know because I collated the survey and produced the reports.

But the deputation weren't to know that; they were simply repeating what they'd been told to say.

They were just the sewer, not the sewage.

[Sceptic]

............and this is exactly where leadership comes in. having the strength of character where the chair keeps a lid on matters, stopping the stream of points of order, cutting off the distractions and side tracks.

Regretfully, I expect it to be a shouting and bawling match, where anyone holding a contrary position to PPAG will be called traitors and betrayers of Portobello. Just as it has been on these pages. I would not call them Nazis, Stalin was just as adept at removing his critics as well. The question of "when did you stop beating your wife " springs to mind.
In other words we do not have any winners, everyone loses.

[wangi]

By my reading 4 of 126 the responses to the PCC survey were against PHS on Porty Park...

http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?p=92477#p92477

[seanie]

Just a reminder.

Portobello Community Council’s constitution also requires the following;

“All meetings of the COMMUNITY COUNCIL and its committees (subject to 11(h), above) shall be open to members of the public.  Proper provision is to be made for the accommodation of members of the public and the opportunity should be afforded at each meeting to permit members of the public to address the COMMUNITY COUNCIL, under the guidance of the Chairperson.”   

Please also be aware that the Town Hall had been provisionally booked for use by the PCC for last Friday and Sunday. The offer of the use of the Town Hall was turned down when offered to the PCC.

[Porty Person]

until now I have always felt welcome and a firm part of the community. I'm not going to let myself feel less part of the community thanks to some xenophobic nonsense from people who hold a different view from me, but I do find it deeply offensive, as well as simply nonsense. I walked up to the park on the day of the demo with a Portobello born and bred person, who told me she had never been in the park until that day. But of course she must feel differently about it from me, because of the happy accident of where our parents happened to live when we were born.

My views were perfectly acceptable despite my incomer status when they were in agreement with local campaigns; PCATS didn't reject my donations or signature or planning letters because I happen to be from Royston Vasey. My money is welcome in local businesses. Now that my view is different from that of the 100-strong "majority" of local people, it is dismissed because of geography and genetics. It is petty and ridiculous, but it is also ignorant and offensive. Disagree with me about where the school should be built if you like, but do it on the grounds of arguments on the case itself, not on my nationality.

Good points, well made!

[Porty]

Just a reminder.

Portobello Community Council’s constitution also requires the following;

“All meetings of the COMMUNITY COUNCIL and its committees (subject to 11(h), above) shall be open to members of the public.  Proper provision is to be made for the accommodation of members of the public and the opportunity should be afforded at each meeting to permit members of the public to address the COMMUNITY COUNCIL, under the guidance of the Chairperson.”   

Please also be aware that the Town Hall had been provisionally booked for use by the PCC for last Friday and Sunday. The offer of the use of the Town Hall was turned down when offered to the PCC.

Turned down by??

[Porty]

http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/ ... =560876367

Above is the PCC official response to the PHS planning application, which is being touted as a "balanced view". You will note that there are 4 supportive comments and 9 objections. At the time I wrote to John Stewart and asked why the supporting comments were in plain text when objections were highlighted in BOLD- I'm still none the wiser, as the response must have been in invisible ink.

[Makaveli]

Mrs Makaveli and her friend are going tonight (I am left with the kids!!!)- hope PPAG are well prepared with some good comebacks cos I know these two girls are not happy about the PPAG stance and have seen through all their flawed arguments over the last few years.

[Pal of Porty]

I don't think it will be a big rammy tonight - I (or Mrs PoP) have attended all the events to date and although there has been some absolute drivel spouted, every meeting has been relatively orderly. The worse part of tonight so far is coming from tonight's chair. Prior to the meeting he has:

* Declared neutrality of the PCC.
* Deemed what is and what is not being discussed/decided upon with regard to our items 1,2 and 3.
* Severely restricted times for speakers to present their case.
* Restricted the numbers allowed entry into the meeting by putting a counter on the door yet refused to hold the meeting in the Town Hall to accomodate large numbers (Yes it was available).
* Refused to have a neutral Chair for the meeting.
* etc etc

Nothing changes.

[Makaveli]

Do you know how many are going to be admitted in tonight POP?

[Pal of Porty]

John ' Neutrality' Stewart defender of the Inner Sanctum has given his counter a limit but it has not been made public.

[rmolehusband]

John ' Neutrality' Stewart defender of the Inner Sanctum has given his counter a limit but it has not been made public.

There will be two doors, one those who support the building of the new school and one for the neutrals.

[Makaveli]

John ' Neutrality' Stewart defender of the Inner Sanctum has given his counter a limit but it has not been made public.

Oh dear - just told Mrs M this and I quote 'I had better get in tonight or they won't know what's hit them' - I might lock me and the kids in a room in the loft tonight when she gets back just in case she is turned away at the door!!!

[gillian]

So, if we get there and are told that we are not allowed in, what do we do??

[seanie]

I'd suggest you make your feelings on the subject known to the PCC from outside the hall rather than inside.

[gillian]

This is madness, what are they hoping to achieve by not providing adequate provision for a meeting of such importance?. Of course they could have consulted the community to get an idea of how many intended attending and then planned accordingly

[seanie]

Well I personally saw to it that the Town Hall was available and provisionally booked for last weekend.

As to why the Chair and Vice-chair decided that tonight at the Community Centre was a better venue, that's really a question that would have to be directed at them.

[rmolehusband]

So, if we get there and are told that we are not allowed in, what do we do??

Go to the pub for a drink. I think the important thing might be the show of support and being spared having to sit through the endless procedural posturing might be a blessing. A crowd outside, unable to attend, would certainly be another example of just how out of touch the CC 'top table' is.

I wonder if the council are sending observers? Blue helmets and flak jackets all round.

[gillian]

And brollies by the look of it.

[Franck]

So, if we get there and are told that we are not allowed in, what do we do??

Take a head count of those unable to get in,try and gauge how many are pro and con, and report accordingly to the relevant body.

I doubt many will be turned away, if it's all seated, I reckon that hall could hold 150 or more.I'd be surprised if that many show up.

[Doris]

Letter in today's EN

Letters: Crucial chance to air views on divisive school project
Tonight there will be a special meeting of Portobello Community Council called to ask Portobello Park Action Group to drop its appeal to the courts about building a new high school on Portobello Park.

As no-one disagrees that a replacement school is needed, where it is to be built has been the major issue in Portobello for the past six years.

It is essential that views throughout the spectrum of opinion in the community are treated with respect and where both groups and individuals are not vilified simply because they hold a different opinion. This includes the right to follow due legal process.

The vociferous campaign taking place in Portobello to drop the appeal has had the opposite effect to that intended and has only stiffened resolve to follow the process to its conclusion in those who oppose losing this large area of Portobello’s parks.

Although the meeting will reveal differences, I trust all present believe that the Community Council should, and will, accurately reflect the differing opinions in Portobello.

Stephen Hawkins, councillor for Portobello/Craigmillar

[Doris]

The vociferous campaign taking place in Portobello to drop the appeal has had the opposite effect to that intended and has only stiffened resolve to follow the process to its conclusion in those who oppose losing this large area of Portobello’s parks.

Looks like they have every intention of taking it further if they lose this next appeal.