Scottish Power Site Re-development 3 - supermarket + housing

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 11 Sep 2010, 16:15

Sandra - Best place for Corn on the Cobs is Lidl - 39p each and they are always lovely.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 11 Sep 2010, 17:22

Porty wrote:
Subject: Waitrose Proposal

FAO PCC Secretary,

As a Portobello Trader, soon to be trading from two shops on Portobello High Street. I would like to register my own and my staff's support for the proposed Waitrose supermarket on the vacant Scottish Power site.

I believe there will be a positive influence on the High Street. Waitrose will
bring visitors and the new residences will also bring a sizable influx of
people and a reasonable chance that they will patronise local businesses.

Yours Sincerely

Stephen McIntyre
The Mortgage People
Cash Brokers

At last! A real business with a real opinion as opposed to unverifiable hearsay. Let's hear from more of you.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 11 Sep 2010, 17:25

Marya wrote:
Bob Jefferson wrote:The old-fashioned way. I asked.
The sender or the recipient? Just wondered how you were aware of the existence of the email.

Did we get an answer to this question?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 11 Sep 2010, 17:54

Marya wrote:
Bob Jefferson wrote:The old-fashioned way. I asked.
The sender or the recipient? Just wondered how you were aware of the existence of the email.

The former. It came up in conversation.

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 12 Sep 2010, 13:55

Bob Jefferson wrote:How many other communities still have a high street butcher, a fishmonger, a deli and a range of other independent businesses?

Stockbridge springs immediately to mind...and they have a Waitrose too.

Now I'm not trying to say Portobello is just like Stockbridge, but I don't 100% buy the argument that a Waitrose type development will be bad for other local traders. Comments on the shopping habits thread already point to most people having a varied shopping experience, with most saying they use local shops a lot..but shock, horror, also use supermarkets. The two can live together, and can compliment each other - and Waitrose in particular have a decent reputation for working with local traders, not something that, eg, Tesco have a reputation for.

I like having good local shops, and will support them to a point, but the support is not unconditional, they're still businesses and have to expect to deal with competition.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 12 Sep 2010, 18:34

bearcub wrote:
Bob Jefferson wrote:How many other communities still have a high street butcher, a fishmonger, a deli and a range of other independent businesses?
Stockbridge springs immediately to mind...and they have a Waitrose too.

And Bruntsfield/Morningside too. They have a Waitrose and an M&S foodstore and a small Tesco. They also have fantastic independent greengrocer, fishmonger, butcher, boutiques, bookshop, children's shoes and clothes, great hardware shop, etc, etc. They also have a Costa (shock horror) which co-exists across the road from the Chocolate Tree cafe and the brilliant German cake shop/cafe. Not to mention Loopy Lorna's Tea Shoppe. So it can be done.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 12 Sep 2010, 20:10

And let's not forget the magnificent Zulu Lounge. But we're not really comparing like with like.

Let's take a common-sense look at this. If a Waitrose up the road has a meat counter, is Findlay's going to sell more meat or less meat as a result? If it has a fish counter, will this bring more trade to Williamson's? Or less? Will its deli selection result in increased sales for Kitchener's?

If the majority want Waitrose (and are prepared to accept any other supermarket) then so be it, and the CC is duty-bound to reflect that, but be careful what you wish for.

Post by **wangi** » 12 Sep 2010, 21:00

Bob Jefferson wrote:Let's take a common-sense look at this. If a Waitrose up the road has a meat counter, is Findlay's going to sell more meat or less meat as a result?

I have a bit of trouble with this air of "entitlement". No shop deserves special treatment or a monopoly position. They are more than capable of competing on quality and service.

Put it like this - which of your mythical meat counters would be willing to let me buy from them at 7:30pm?

Increased competition doesn't necessarily mean a reduced cut for the incumbents. It can result in an increased market - a more vibrant High Street that draws in more people because it offers more. If you want an example think about the deregulated airlines / airports in Europe.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 12 Sep 2010, 21:15

What's mythical about them? Don't tell me that Waitrose have introduced a new range of unicorn sausages.

Franck · Post by **Franck** » 13 Sep 2010, 09:32

Bob Jefferson wrote:And let's not forget the magnificent Zulu Lounge. But we're not really comparing like with like.

Let's take a common-sense look at this. If a Waitrose up the road has a meat counter, is Findlay's going to sell more meat or less meat as a result? If it has a fish counter, will this bring more trade to Williamson's? Or less? Will its deli selection result in increased sales for Kitchener's?

If the majority want Waitrose (and are prepared to accept any other supermarket) then so be it, and the CC is duty-bound to reflect that, but be careful what you wish for.

Will findlays not benefit from the 100's of more residents that will occupy the new flats, or will they exclusively shop in Waitrose?Alot of focus on the proposed supermarket, not much on the benefits all the new porty residents will bring.

And why should Findlays be protected?I was in the take-away place the other day and that seems to have gone downhill, as has kitcheners.

Mark Cameron · Post by **Mark Cameron** » 13 Sep 2010, 13:16

I agree that if we already had a Waitrose or M&S style small outlet the results of this poll would likely not be in favour of another supermarket. Day to day life has changed and for many it's about convenience. The shops need to give the consumer what they want and perhaps more importantly when they want it. How many of the local shops are open beyond 5:00pm?

Portobello is an area where a lot of young families live. Working parents can't get to the local shops during traditional business hours unfortunately (even if they'd love to) and therefore the convenience of supermarkets provides a big draw. I think local traders would have to review their opening hours (perhaps closing during the quieter parts of the day) before they'd see a reversal of the decline.

Also other forms of incentive could be offered (loyalty schemes for buying in Porty shops). Has anyone ever considered/discussed introducing our own currency (ie the Porty pound) like Totnes or Lewes have done http://www.thelewespound.org/how.html have introduced)?

There was a depressing report issued this week from 'The Local Data Company' which shows almost 25% of shops in Leith are vacant. This is really worrying as this is an area that was seen as having a resurrgence a few years ago.

Slightly lost my way from the original question but just a few thoughts - and I understand that making these things happen is the hard part!

Franck · Post by **Franck** » 13 Sep 2010, 14:02

mcdryburn wrote:I agree that if we already had a Waitrose or M&S style small outlet the results of this poll would likely not be in favour of another supermarket. Day to day life has changed and for many it's about convenience. The shops need to give the consumer what they want and perhaps more importantly when they want it. How many of the local shops are open beyond 5:00pm?

Portobello is an area where a lot of young families live. Working parents can't get to the local shops during traditional business hours unfortunately (even if they'd love to) and therefore the convenience of supermarkets provides a big draw. I think local traders would have to review their opening hours (perhaps closing during the quieter parts of the day) before they'd see a reversal of the decline.

Also other forms of incentive could be offered (loyalty schemes for buying in Porty shops). Has anyone ever considered/discussed introducing our own currency (ie the Porty pound) like Totnes or Lewes have done http://www.thelewespound.org/how.html have introduced)?

There was a depressing report issued this week from 'The Local Data Company' which shows almost 25% of shops in Leith are vacant. This is really worrying as this is an area that was seen as having a resurrgence a few years ago.

Slightly lost my way from the original question but just a few thoughts - and I understand that making these things happen is the hard part!

I'm in one of the 75% thats open and trading and can tell you trying to operate a business in Leith right now is nearly impossible.I'd welcome 500 more residents in the Leith area, all with money in their pockets.The new Tesco that opens next week will help too, it's an improvement on what Scotmid offered and people respond to that, it's also going to be open until 10pm.

I cannot understand why BL development are allowing the focus of this argument to be the retail unit and not the 100's more potential clients the local retail community are going to benefit from having.

As the song goes, accentuate the positives.

Franck · Post by **Franck** » 13 Sep 2010, 14:42

Bob Jefferson wrote:It might also be useful to poll local traders. Surely no-one knows the impact a supermarket is likely to have on their trade than the owners themselves? Perhaps they will agree with Phil that a Waitrose would have a positive effect, attracting other new businesses to the High Street and new customers from outwith Portobello. However, I wouldn't bet on it.

This is an extract from an email sent by Joe Findlay to Portobello Community Council recently:

Over the last few months I have had to pay off one member of my staff and reduce the hours of others due to recent trading conditions. To allow a supermarket to be built on this site would most definitely have an adverse impact on my business and would almost certainly lead to further job losses among my staff.
If that's what Findlay's are saying, how do you think they feel at Kitcheners about the prospect of a Waitrose up the road? In the middle of a recession, I imagine it's probably the last thing they need.

How did Mr Findlay react to the prospect of having 100's of more residents parked along from his shop?Did you ask if he would sacrifice those new residents if it meant no new retail unit?As a retailer myself, I'd suck it up, see the potential in the new porty residents and take on the national retailer on a local level, it's easy, I've done it myself.

Nothing is handed to anyone on a plate, the customer is king and if the butchers,fishmonger & bakers of porty cant handle a wee bit of competition ( and lets face it, Waitrose wont be selling bargain ranges) then they should maybe let someone else have a go.

Gallus · Post by **Gallus** » 13 Sep 2010, 14:53

admin: post moved to this thread.

For the sake of the local retailers I would be opposed to a supermarket on the site. I have no problems with a small shop but when you start putting in a supermarket which may affect the fishmonger and butcher etc. then I become concerned about the sustainabilty of the High Street.

The development of this site has dragged on too long. I can understand the protests over the superstore but now we must move on. I would welcome new people to the area enjoying and participating in our community.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 13 Sep 2010, 15:18

Trouble is Gallus, there is no 'housing without a supermarket' option on offer from BL. They tried that and it was knocked back.

Post by **wangi** » 13 Sep 2010, 17:12

admin: I've done a fair bit of tidying up - on-topic posts from the poll thread have been merged in here; along with separating out the previous planning application (see here of all the related threads).

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2010, 20:12

Yes, the hundreds of extra residents living in the new flats will do at least some of their shopping in the High Street and that is to be welcomed. I don't have an issue with the residential element of the plan. In fact, let's have a few more flats and a smaller retail element. Even more people to shop in the High Street and a fair-sized convenience store for their basic shopping requirements.

That's my personal view but I'm equally concerned that the view of the majority should prevail and it is therefore up to the community council to consult with the community by whatever means possible so that they can best represent public opinion.

Mark Cameron · Post by **Mark Cameron** » 13 Sep 2010, 20:27

Bob what are the means by which the CC have/will engage with the community on this?

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 13 Sep 2010, 20:35

Franck wrote: I cannot understand why BL development are allowing the focus of this argument to be the retail unit and not the 100's more potential clients the local retail community are going to benefit from having.

As the song goes, accentuate the positives.

I cannot control what people want to talk about on the portal. Like you it depresses me when people talk negatively about one issue and do not see the big picture. What about the new community/arts facilities? What about the Music School? The recording studios? The artists studios? The performance space? The community cafe? The community garden/allotments? None of these things make me money. Should I bin them in favour of something more profitable and create a residential ghetto with no facilities? What about the new medical/wellbeing centre? What about the employment all this brings. And the spin off opportunities for young local businesses/artists/musicians?

Bob says lets have more flats. there were more flats. And they were vehemently opposed by the Community Council so I am now forced to lower densities. He says be careful what you wish for. Maybe being more careful what you wish for last time around would have been a good idea.

I am trying to create a comprehensive, inclusive, viable scheme that will work as a community and as part of Portobello. It's not easy believe me. I can't please all of the people all of the time. Maybe those who see good in some of this should express their views here.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 13 Sep 2010, 20:42

mcdryburn wrote:Bob what are the means by which the CC have/will engage with the community on this?

A friend of mine spoke over the weekend with a Portobello trader. They were completely unaware this debate. They commented that on the Viridor issue they and all other traders were contacted personally by PCC and asked for support. They have had no contact from PCC on this issue. They commented also that PCC consult when they think people will agree with them But when not they just bash on regardless based upon their own views.

They also mentioned that there are 10 hairdressers or similar on the High Street and they all compete quite happily. They don't ask for protection from competition or monopoly rights.

Mark Cameron · Post by **Mark Cameron** » 13 Sep 2010, 20:52

Phillip - this all sounds great and really positive and is something I wasn't aware of.

What was the response rate like at the drop in meetings to outline the plans - I just have a feeling that many of the big issues that face the community aren't actually seen by enough of the community (although I may be wrong).

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2010, 21:12

mcdryburn wrote:Bob what are the means by which the CC have/will engage with the community on this?

That's a very good question and one that members of the Community Council will have to answer.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 13 Sep 2010, 21:18

mcdryburn wrote:Phillip - this all sounds great and really positive and is something I wasn't aware of.

What was the response rate like at the drop in meetings to outline the plans - I just have a feeling that many of the big issues that face the community aren't actually seen by enough of the community (although I may be wrong).

Of course you are not aware of it. Nobody on PCC seems to want to tell you or anyone else about it.

The open day was great. We had about 100 poeple through the door all of whom we were able to speak to personally. Doesn't sound like a lot I know but believe me for an event like that it's a pretty good turnout - about 1 person every 3 minutes for the 6 hours we were open.

Most - about 80 - filled out a detailed questionnaire. The event focussed principally on heights and density of homes - the 2 issues that PCC raised on the previous application - and how we were going to deal with those. But our ideas have developed since that event and were outlined in more detail at the PCC meeting at the end of August.

Shortly we will exhibit more detail of the proposals in the library.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2010, 21:29

philip myerscough wrote:What about the new community/arts facilities? What about the Music School? The recording studios? The artists studios? The performance space? The community cafe? The community garden/allotments? None of these things make me money.

Phil, you're starting to sound more like a philanthropist than a property developer. The recording studios are already on the site, so you had to cut some kind of deal with them. The Music School is a commercial enterprise and last I heard they were considering a number of possible sites. I'm not sure what a 'community' cafe is, or on what basis it will be run and I have questions about some of these other things.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 13 Sep 2010, 21:49

philip myerscough wrote: Of course you are not aware of it. Nobody on PCC seems to want to tell you or anyone else about it.

How have you come to that conclusion Mr Myerscough?

GRANTY · Post by **GRANTY** » 13 Sep 2010, 22:33

I rarely post on the forum but, I have been a resident of Porty for nearly 20 years and in terms of the Community Council can't remember EVER being consulted on my views about the area.

In terms of the BL Developments proposal, I am deeply concerned that PCC are speaking on behalf of me, yet no attempt has been made to establish my views. Therefore, it is a flawed representation by a few individuals.

For the record, I support the proposals. The gap site is an eyesore and a risk, in its present state. The developer could opt to flatten both the music studios and the arts space - but hasn't - and I know Phil has supported other community groups with access to space on the site.

Maybe it's time to lend a bit of support before we end up with either nothing or worse ?

Ali

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 13 Sep 2010, 22:48

Bob Jefferson wrote:
philip myerscough wrote:What about the new community/arts facilities? What about the Music School? The recording studios? The artists studios? The performance space? The community cafe? The community garden/allotments? None of these things make me money.
Phil, you're starting to sound more like a philanthropist than a property developer. The recording studios are already on the site, so you had to cut some kind of deal with them. The Music School is a commercial enterprise and last I heard they were considering a number of possible sites. I'm not sure what a 'community' cafe is, or on what basis it will be run and I have questions about some of these other things.

Oh you are so cynical! Verden Studios are on a short term lease. I can include them or not as I wish. The community cafe would be that presently run by the Music School at their existing premises. They may bo looking at other premises also but that does not take away from the fact that I am saying to them you are welcome. Come and work with us to create a centre for community arts in Portobello. All I can do is offer. If you have questions about other things ask away. I have the answers

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 13 Sep 2010, 23:00

Marya wrote:
philip myerscough wrote: Of course you are not aware of it. Nobody on PCC seems to want to tell you or anyone else about it.

How have you come to that conclusion Mr Myerscough?

Because, Marya, nobody I speak to or anyone I know speaks to in the community has been approached by PCC and most are ignorant of the proposals. I bear some blame for that though I did try to advertise the open day widely through local retailers etc. And there's another post on this site 30 mins ago from yet another resident who has never been consulted on anything. Having said that I know there is a limit to what PCC can reasonably do and it is up to individuals in the community to find out what is going on and participate.

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 13 Sep 2010, 23:09

The PCC's initial response.

philip myerscough · Post by **philip myerscough** » 13 Sep 2010, 23:13

Bob Jefferson wrote:
philip myerscough wrote:What about the new community/arts facilities? What about the Music School? The recording studios? The artists studios? The performance space? The community cafe? The community garden/allotments? None of these things make me money.
Phil, you're starting to sound more like a philanthropist than a property developer. The recording studios are already on the site, so you had to cut some kind of deal with them. The Music School is a commercial enterprise and last I heard they were considering a number of possible sites. I'm not sure what a 'community' cafe is, or on what basis it will be run and I have questions about some of these other things.

Just to complete the picture Out of the Blue have been occupying buildings on our site rent free for the past 3 years. Sparta Boxing Club who do fantastic work with young men in our communities also occupy space rent free. Before they came to Portobello they occupied a building we owned rent free at Meadowbank. Before that they occupied buildings at our site at Shrub Place Leith Walk for 2 years rent free. They came to us when they were thrown out of their McDonald Road premises which they had occupied for years by someone who wanted to develop the site.

The Porty Boat Club have been using premises at our site rent free for the past year to build their famous boat that you will all know about. I think they are presently building another. I met today with Tom Black who is looking for somehere to store stuff associated with the very successful Brighton Place market. Not a problem.

So please don't question my integrity

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 13 Sep 2010, 23:52

GRANTY wrote:I rarely post on the forum but, I have been a resident of Porty for nearly 20 years and in terms of the Community Council can't remember EVER being consulted on my views about the area.

There was an ambitious attempt at some community 'blue sky thinking' in a PCC event in the Town Hall in the autumn of 2005 Granty, which generated lots of info. (see Portobello Community Development Plan), but certainly there has been nothing on that sort of scale since. The CC don't have much of a budget and it is difficult to carry out the same scale of community consultation that the council or a developer can. A lot of the time we have to respond to an issue before the next monthly meeting so have to make decisions quickly. We then rely on feedback from group reps, local contacts, the word on the street' or sources such as this forum. I agree it would be good to carry out more frequent and wider consultation and welcome suggestions as to how the CC could best achieve this.

The monthly community council meetings are often advertised by myself on here or on the 'Coming Events' section of Porty.org.uk and all residents are most welcome to attend and participate in these. It is a chance for local residents to find out more about local issues or raise their own issues of concern and ask for support. 'Consultation' can be a two way street.

In terms of the BL Developments proposal, I am deeply concerned that PCC are speaking on behalf of me, yet no attempt has been made to establish my views. Therefore, it is a flawed representation by a few individuals.

As you can see from the letter Seanie has posted, the stance the PCC taken on this issue is that the community were consulted on what they wanted on the Scottish Power site, when the North West Portobello Development Brief was drawn up. The community consultation period was well publicised and feedback from local residents helped form a set of planning guidelines for future development, not just of the Scottish Power site, but the whole North West Portobello area.

Makaveli · Post by **Makaveli** » 14 Sep 2010, 03:30

If it was not for this forum I would not have any idea about any of this as we do not buy the local newspapers - yet when it came to the opposition of Viridor I was having leaflets pushed through my letterbox every other week with information!!!

Just seems to me that there are a few (and a couple on here) people that clearly do not want this development - and I think they know that if a wider audience was to hear about the plans then the plans would be given the backing by a large amount of the community.

I have no idea why these people don't want the new development from what I have seen and read it would be a great move and the Porty community would benefit.

Is there anyway that we can show our support for this development (and I don't just mean via this website) as I know alot of people that would like to give a big fat 'yes go and build it' to this development. Is there a chance to get some sort of petition or letters sent to the PCC to let them know that the wider community want this and that just because they don't that should not be the end of it?

Please let me know how I and others can register support.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 14 Sep 2010, 08:23

Makaveli wrote:If it was not for this forum I would not have any idea about any of this as we do not buy the local newspapers - yet when it came to the opposition of Viridor I was having leaflets pushed through my letterbox every other week with information!!!

Perhaps I'd better clarify here. Several members of the Community Council, such as myself, were part of the Portobello Opposes New Garbage Site (PONGS) campaign , but many PONGS members were not CC members. The PONGS group was independent of the PCC and any leafleting was carried out by PONGS members and not on behalf of the CC. Similarly, approaches to traders, were made by PONGS members.

Is there anyway that we can show our support for this development (and I don't just mean via this website) as I know alot of people that would like to give a big fat 'yes go and build it' to this development. Is there a chance to get some sort of petition or letters sent to the PCC to let them know that the wider community want this and that just because they don't that should not be the end of it?

Please let me know how I and others can register support.

As a starting point Makaveli I'd suggest you email/snail mail the Chair of the CC with your comments. As far as I'm aware, all comments so far, have been from local traders (including one communication from the Chair of the Traders Association) all urging that the CC oppose the proposal. The Chair of the CC and his address is clearly identified on the response letter posted by Seanie (on this thread about 4 posts back) and previously these email addresses have been used by the 2 secretaries of the CC. If they don't work let me know and I'll ask for an updated email contact.

portobellocc@googlemail.com

portycc@me.com

seanie · Post by **seanie** » 14 Sep 2010, 08:26

Marya wrote:As you can see from the letter Seanie has posted, the stance the PCC taken on this issue is that the community were consulted on what they wanted on the Scottish Power site, when the North West Portobello Development Brief was drawn up. The community consultation period was well publicised and feedback from local residents helped form a set of planning guidelines for future development, not just of the Scottish Power site, but the whole North West Portobello area.

“The community council also feels that any revised planning application which BL submits must be in agreement with the development brief for the area, the North West Portobello Development Brief. The NW Portobello Development Brief represents a clear indication of the views of local residents and this has to be acknowledged by the community council in determining its stance on your revised proposals.”

As I pointed out when the last draft was circulated, I do not recall the PCC agreeing to this and if the proposition had been put forward as our position, I would have insisted on a vital caveat. Whilst the NWPDB is an important consideration, the overriding duty of the Community Council is to represent the views of the community it serves. That is a far more important consideration than a planning document drafted by the Planning Department, particularly when such documents are always open to interpretation.

I considered the previous application to be broadly compliant with the NWPDB. More importantly the Planning Department considered the previous application to be broadly compliant with the NWPDB. And yet the PCC vehemently objected.

Many on the PCC thought the last proposal did not comply, but it's worth remembering that the NWPDB was written by the Planning Department. If there is disagreement over the interpretation of the NWPDB any fault in understanding may not necessarily lie with the Planning Department.

Makaveli · Post by **Makaveli** » 14 Sep 2010, 10:02

Thanks for those e-mail address Marya - I will now be getting myself and others to put our point across to the PCC.

I urge the others on here that have shown that they are in support to do likewise.

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

Scottish Power Site Re-development 3 - supermarket + housing

Supermarket on the old Scottish Power site