Jetski danger and petition

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:17

What concerns me most is the safety aspect of this. I don't have strong feelings about the jet ski per se, but am concerned about them being used so close to swimmers.

(BTW Tom, my cousin has a jet ski but no tatoos, 4x4, gold chains, kids, or any type of dog. I'll need to let him know that he's lacking a few essential accessories

)

Edit: inserted a comma after Tom, lest folk thought Tom was my cousin.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:18

Marya wrote: (BTW Tom my cousin has a jet ski but no tatoos, 4x4, gold chains, kids, or any type of dog. I'll need to let him know that he's lacking a few essential accessories )

Eh, I think being your cousin gives him all the chav credentials required.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:19

How very dare you!

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:20

Thanks guy`s, First of lets be honest why does the word "Jetskier" fill you with such fear & loathing.

Sure, Theres idiots in all walks of life. But why this one ?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:38

'Loathing' is going a bit far for me Freestyler, but I admit that I worry about the safety of folk swimming in the water when there's a jet ski buzzing around. Swimmers are hard to spot and the jet skiers go at a fair lick.

I've also seen young kids hitching 'a backie' from jetskiers and going out quite far at a fair speed without any safety gear. As for jetskiers being 'idiots', I don't think they all are, but my cousin has one and he can't even swim!

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:39

Ok no takers on that one...

Some of your points so far.

Vehicle`s on the beach, By there nature these ski`s are a fair weight,So they need to be transported to the waters edge, Having said that there is no real need for them to stay there and should be parked up.

This is a fair statement and i think driving down to the water to slip or recover your ski is not a huge problem if done at the correct speed and with care. ( I don`t own a 4x4, This is a lifestyle purchase, Not only by jetskiers may i add )

Dogs & their mess. Well this is an age old problem and i think it`s not just because you own a ski that this all starts and ends with us. ( I don`t own a dog)

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 28 Dec 2006, 17:48

Marya wrote:'Loathing' is going a bit far for me Freestyler, but I admit that I worry about the safety of folk swimming in the water when there's a jet ski buzzing around. Swimmers are hard to spot and the jet skiers go at a fair lick.

I've also seen young kids hitching 'a backie' from jetskiers and going out quite far at a fair speed without any safety gear. As for jetskiers being 'idiots', I don't think they all are, but my cousin has one and he can't even swim!

I`ll be honest, Until now i never knew what the marker bouy`s were for either.
They were placed there with good intention, But somebody forgot to tell anybody what they were marking.
Skiing with swimmers and other water users is a no-no but to me thats just common sence. But if you are new to this sport you find out beginers tend to stick close to shore for comfort. (Not ideal practice, just human nature)
If you take this sport seriously then there are some general rule`s that should be adheared to. Taking the RYA Course would be the best anwser as all the general rules of the water are there.

Safety gear such as lifejackets are a no brainer, The sea is the wrong place to be with out one (As is any stretch of water)

There are some valid points about safety but the bits i take issue with are the blanket bans and in some cases just wanting to stop others having fun.

Just because somebody does`nt understand it doesn`t mean it`s all pointless and needs restricted or banned. And all these newspaper headlines about killer jetski`s is now starting to grate.

With reguards to noise, They do emit some noise But nothing like the levels reported here. At the end of the day the engine is started to purge the engine & exhaust of water this bit can be noisy but can`t go on for to long ( 3 mins tops ) as without water the engine would overheat and seize. So the comment about hours of engine reving is just not true.

And if some idiot is doing this, Then you won`t have to worry about him for to long as the engine will be toast in no time.

bearcub · Post by **bearcub** » 28 Dec 2006, 22:54

Personally I don't have anything against jet-skiers, but I'm sure there's a few that give others a bad name.....just as in all walks of life.

I'd hope that if there were sensible precautions in place, ie. no skiing inside the buoys and observance of the general rule of reducing noise in unsociable hours, then there would be no reason that anyone but the most rabid NIMBY would have anything to really complain about.

Thumper* · Post by Thumper* » 29 Dec 2006, 01:14

Hi People............... now then.................. lets see if I can get you all to take up a little challenge for me.......it's called.. "Empathy"

You see.the way this thread is reading......... you all sound very stuck in your way's...and not on my doorstep type of people..........well I'm sure your not.....so humor me................ That newspaper artical was full of misleading information, re Jetski's.

Did you know that "Personal Watercraft" as they are known....meet the strictest, californian emissions laws..........laws that I bet your car would'nt pass................ the average age of a purchasers of a personal watercraft is 39..........married..with 2.4 kids............. so generally a responsible type of chap.............. most genuine user's of PWC....have undergone...more training and tuition.......... than you could imagine........and the niose levels of modern craft are extreemly low........lower than that of a modern car

Now then.... I could throw facts at you all day..............and counter any aurgument you may have against them.................. but why not try some positive action instead

There will always be one or two idiots that spoil a reputation for the rest......... and spoil other people sense of safety and responsibility......

So......... the RYA( Royal Yatching Assoc).have a wonderfull document called Managing PWC............get hold of a copy............... call a meeting with "local Skiers"................. try and set up a club...........or action group, involving local skiers.................. you may find that they are very friendly and care about the local area............. I guaruntee, most of you problems are being caused by visitors with no regard for themselves and other peoples safety...........

You are in a "we" situation here......so use the local skiers as a good resource and allies..................... trust me........it's quicker and easyer than legislation.......... that will take years.......

Anyway.....if you ban jetskiing on the grounds of safety............what will you do next when bored.......ban cars and motorbikes ???

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 29 Dec 2006, 10:51

Thumper* wrote: call a meeting with "local Skiers"................. try and set up a club...........or action group, involving local skiers.................. you may find that they are very friendly and care about the local area............. I guaruntee, most of you problems are being caused by visitors with no regard for themselves and other peoples safety...........

Maybe you and Freestyler could set up a local action group Thumper* ?You could then address the next Community Council meeting and suggest a way forward.

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 29 Dec 2006, 13:26

Ok. Here is my view.

I live in portobello. I chose to live in portobello because I wanted somewhere to live were I could walk and enjoy a break from the city. In the summer I can hear the damn things in my garden.

My principle objections to jet-skis are the noise. People drive in from outside of this area in their trucks and totally disrupt the atmosphere down on the beach. They are not a "good resource and allies" they are using and possibly abusing the common area of the beach. They have no positive impact on the community, little to nothing for the economy and a strong adverse effect on the wildlife. The safety issue is largely dealt with at Porty (so long as it is obeyed -- there is a notice at the bottom of Kings Road); I have seen several PWC's uses the buoys as a marked course, which is not a great advert for the mentality...

My principle hack is that jet skis are allowed anywhere unless they are specifically allowed not to. I would like to see this reversed. And... ...portobello beach is a good place for them but it needs to be in a controled way. Not dawn till dusk 7 days a week during the summer. I would like to see permitted times, say three days a week. And further down the beach (where the access ramp is ~300yards from the end of Kings Road). I would see this as a step to a compromise solution. If the gates were replaced and maintained this would help. How does that sound?

My comparative piece of land equipment are cross bikes -- which are now confined to marked and controlled areas or used illegally.

2jamie

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 29 Dec 2006, 15:12

Marya wrote:
Thumper* wrote: call a meeting with "local Skiers"................. try and set up a club...........or action group, involving local skiers.................. you may find that they are very friendly and care about the local area............. I guaruntee, most of you problems are being caused by visitors with no regard for themselves and other peoples safety...........
Maybe you and Freestyler could set up a local action group Thumper* ?You could then address the next Community Council meeting and suggest a way forward.

I think that is an excellent idea. The Portobello Jst Ski club could even become an interest group and have representation on the community council.

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 29 Dec 2006, 18:01

Some sort of a club or assoc is the way to go, As i`ve said i`ve done all my skiing at loch lomond and other venues up and down the country,

Now i know there is some activity at the King road end of the beach and have had the odd drive down to have a look. On the occasions i been there i`ve never seen anything to worry about, I`m not saying stuff does not happen It`s just i`ve never seen it.

Basic guide lines have to be drawn up and posted there, That way there is no way of saying " Oh i did not know that " Registration tagging is another way of controling and reporting problems. I have no problem with this except with the number of venues and competion numbers issued to me i have more numbers than i know what to do with.

I was one of the original founding members of the Loch Lomond jetski Assoc and this was set up to give us a voice at the meetings which were going to decide our fate, Just talking and sorting out problems is by far the easyiest way to go for all considered.

Can anybody tell me who is in charge of beach activity, I mean for everyone and everything. To my mind there is no-one and this does not help the cause, As the beach use is now starting to recover there should be a " beach warden" to overlook all activity`s.

With the new recovery and use comes new sports. PWC, kite-surfing, sailing Etc. These sports have never been the norm and each has it`s own needs and constraints.

Thumper* · Post by Thumper* » 29 Dec 2006, 18:24

I would be more than deleighted to come and address, any meeting, that includes all authorities that have a local interest....... and the residents......... and user's of the area, with vested interest's.......

I'm so glad you wish to develope the idea..........it would be a pity to just Ban an activity, through ignorance ( on both sides,may I add)........ Signage at the slipway.......beach wardens..........local authority wardens are all great ideas........and do work well in other area's...... but be warned.....there is a cost to those resources.........and in my experience.....local councils are slow to take up the batten

What you must realise is tha PWC have been around for a long time now.......they are'nt going anywhere......... if you ban em............you will have anarchy at your local launch site........... the law abidng skier's well find somewhere else.....but the idiots........will just take no notice......and cause an even greater problem............... The vast Majority of skiers are good people (of middle age).......you will have to engage them........they won't roll over............

And as for the Scotttish Parliment being asked to get involved............. well......that shows how focussed your local Authority is.............now then !!.... which one of you voted for them......come on ...... own up !!!!

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 29 Dec 2006, 20:38

Dialogue is definitely the way forward and I'm pleased that the discussion forum has helped to facilitate this. I'm sure that with goodwill on both sides an amicable solution can be found.

On a national level though, I suspect that more needs to be done to deal with that small percentage of irresponsible users who give all jet skiers a bad name.

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 30 Dec 2006, 11:50

Much as dialogue is useful I fail to see why residents of an area should accept that people causing a disturbance purely for their own entertainment are entitled to rights and dialogue. If jetskis were performing some necessary or even useful function then this discussion would not be happening.

I will continue to press for a ban, which can then be negotiated for controlled access by jetski associations. Then they would have to make their case.

I would be grateful if you were to address my objections.

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 30 Dec 2006, 12:55

I`m sorry you feel that way, And i too can find things on the beach that irratate me too, But it`s a public space and these things all come with the turf. I could moan all day about Pub noise, Drunks, Dog crap, Litter.......
The fact is i bought a house beside a busy and popular beach and these all come with it.

Please detail your concerns and lets see what could be done.

I think the main problem is at the launching point, This is the biggest problem not just at Porty but everywhere.

The access to the water is very limited and these key spot get busy at times.

Example, Loch Lomond is the biggest stretch of fresh water in the UK, Now there were concerns about jet ski`s "taking over the place"

The fact is there is only 3 launching point in the whole 26 miles of it and there are only 750 odd ski`s registered at the loch as apposed to the 1500 odd speed boats. No one seems to mind speed boats or gin floats ??

It`s no different here if there was a launch spot further down the coast then it would be used. I can get on to the forth at North Berwick but because people have bought houses at the public slip we get hassle there to. ( And i hav`nt even got out the car yet )
If i go to Port Edgar the council will quite happly take my money but then we have to put up with all the crap the yachties throw at us.

The real truth is as a jetskier peoples minds are made up and were are just turning up to spoil their day. This is just not true, We work hard pay our taxes and want to have our fun on the water instead of going to the pub or watching football.

All this water and no real access to it.

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 30 Dec 2006, 13:35

Hi Freestyler,

Thanks for taking the time.

For me this all comes down to noise. The basic problem is that lots of people use that beach and one jet-skier makes sufficient noise to annoy 10's if not 100's of people. We live in a packed place and there is point where you have to simply say that they are antisocial. I want to have a quiet walk on the beach. I have equally as much right to do that as a jet-skier has to play. Yet we each restrict the others freedom. My actions are only restricting the jet-skier...

I accept that there is a problem with following bans... re water skiing in the British Lakes. Once one place starts to ban then concentrations emerge somewhere else that makes it worse for there, then a ban, and so on. Loch Lomond is going to get the washover from that as I guess you are all to aware.

That all said, Porty beach is far from the worst place for them to go. I'd much prefer them there than where they can do damage to wildlife on some of the more secluded areas of this coast. But they need to be away from the residential areas -- Knockhill racing circuit would hardly be allowed in a residential area, so why PWC's? -- and they need to be responsible about times. Last summer when the weather was nice it was nearly everyday. I can only see restrictions on that happening through enforcement.

I don't think the launching point is an issue here (I guess at Loch Lomond there is little to no public land opening onto the Loch, so access rights come into play). In fact I think the comparative ease and hassle free nature of the launching point has created the other issues. There is little else to attract so they shuttle up and down the beach close to shore, showing off to what ever audience is available. I've once see a pair go off to the Isle of Inchkeith -- I have no problem with that at all -- in fact it looked fun!

Cheers,

2jamie

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 30 Dec 2006, 14:16

The noise bit confuses me, Unless there is a really old model of ski being used, Granted some of the older ski`s had side exhausts, But we are talking 15 years ago. All exhausts now enter the water and i can only think it`s the slap of the hull on the water that is getting to you.

I really need to visit the site to see the problem for myself and belive me if it not right it has to be fixed.

As for skimming the shore line of a busy beach, well thats just not on and i agree with you on this point, This is a show of boredom and chances are this is someone who is now getting to the " What do i do with it now " stage and may well move on to something else soon.

Wildlife issues, well thats a hard one to convince you on. There is no way you can creep up on anything on a ski. In fact the porpoises can sometimes join you for a run on a good day. The ski`s are are alot cleaner than you would think.

I will make the effort to look at the activity on the beach and try and help resolve any problems.

What i would like to know is who is the person or body that looks after the beach, Because it` all too east to buy a cheap ski on E-bay and drag it down to the beach to have a blast, This is the activity that causes problems.

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 30 Dec 2006, 14:57

With regards the wildlife. I'm very aware of this from rock climbing. There have been frequent sore points with bird lovers with the result that certain areas are, largely volountarily, off-limits at certain times of the year. And it has been accepted by the climbing fraternity.

Around the shore here this must also apply -- the Forth Estuary is very important for all manner of shore creatures at varying times of the year -- and unrestricted access is a worry in this regard. I remember seeing something on BBC Coast programme about how jetskiers from Belfast were causing disruption to seal colonies. But this is an entirely separate issue from the noise and residents.

Thanks for your informed opinions!

Cheers

Jamie

Thumper* · Post by Thumper* » 30 Dec 2006, 18:13

Thanks Bob ......... yes your right !!! .......... Compromise is needed....on both sides I might add......

Jamie ............... imagine if someone decided to call for a ban on rockclimbers.......... and how many good reasons could you think of for that.......... lots.............. and what about when you walk down the said beach.........if I was to visit on my ski....you would be spoiling my view.....and i may think about getting you banned........

Seriously ........... you need to chill out a bit matey ............... views like your are considered extreem, by those in power......trust me....dialouge and a local agreement......is quick......easy (comparitively).....and can be long lasting and beneficial to all............and, more to the point...you will be listened too

My offer remains .............but I'm sure freestyler will make things happen for ya !!!! .

If you help him.......... ( rememeber ....... it's a "we" situation ) ....your one small town in a big beutifull country.............. only you care !!

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 30 Dec 2006, 18:44

Thumper that is just perverse... my point is that one person effects lots rather than one.

Oh, and I stopped rock climbed partly because it became so crowded at the crags I could no longer support the unequivocal rights of access for that sport. It has reached a kind of equilibrium thourgh negotation because ultimately land owners can always ban access -- that forces the climbers to be accomadating. But I digress.

I don't understand much of the rest.

Events at the scottish parliment don't appear to bare out your extremist opinion of me. Bottom line -- hedonistic boys toys, I don't get where these rights to use them come from, back to truck racing again (see below).

GRANTY · Post by **GRANTY** » 30 Dec 2006, 20:17

As a prom dweller, can I just chip in that the noise, on a summer's evening or a Sunday afternoon is pretty irritating. Believe me, it's LOUD!

Messalina · Post by **Messalina** » 30 Dec 2006, 21:12

I don't mind jet-skis as long as they're at Silverknowes! I'm just fed up with them in Porty.

Freestyler · Post by **Freestyler** » 30 Dec 2006, 23:11

Thanks for the input, But could you expand on your reasons.

Thumper* · Post by Thumper* » 31 Dec 2006, 00:14

Headonistic ??? ......you mean you don't have one...... and think it's a rich mans sport ............... ??

I know I won't change your views ....................... but your approach, needs a little work........ hence my post's !!

I'm glad you don't live in Milton Keynes on the back of the M1........... I suppose you'd want that closed aswell !!!!!

ali · Post by **ali** » 31 Dec 2006, 01:04

GRANTY wrote:As a prom dweller, can I just chip in that the noise, on a summer's evening or a Sunday afternoon is pretty irritating. Believe me, it's LOUD!

I believe you - I've heard it and I wouldn't like to live on the prom and listen to that all day at weekends.

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 31 Dec 2006, 15:22

Ah Thumper you are making my case much better than I could. The fact that you perceive me to seek a ban because because I am "envious" of your "rich mans toy" is its own story. This probably explains why owners want to seek the maximum audience and hug the beach.

Freestyler; I'm sorry, but I am inclined to believe that Thumper is more representative of the mentality than your sober assessments.

Oh and no, oddly, I wouldn't want to "ban the M1"; it is an important if not crucial part of our transport infrastructure. The ego-massaging of overgrown children with a self-important view of their toys is not quite of the same importance.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 31 Dec 2006, 15:48

2jamie, I know that you don't represent the "ban jet-ski" fraternity, any more than Thumper* or Freestyler represent the jet skiiers but it seem that the wish to compromise is one-way. Freestyler intimated that there was a need for educatiin in relation to the buoys and I wonder if all that is required here is a bit of organisation and respect on both sides.

"jamie I do have an issue with the following statement that you made:

2jamie wrote:. I want to have a quiet walk on the beach. I have equally as much right to do that as a jet-skier has to play.
2jamie

Where did you get the idea that you have a right to a quiet walk along the beach? You say it like the jet-skiers are depriving you of your rights, as far as I am aware there is no such thing as a right to a quiet walk for you or anyone else. Whereas everyone is entitled to walk on the beach.

Portobello is a beach but not a beach on a tropical island or northern coast of scotland. It is a city beach.

(Thumper*.....whats with......all the...............? Is that a jet ski thing?

)

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 31 Dec 2006, 16:05

Porty -- the conversation with Freestyler is useful and constructive. There is happy haitus is that respect about essentially a disparity in infomation. However I am entitled to respond to Thumper.

The point about rights to walk on the beach is to observe that to use whatever on common areas is not an automatic entitlement -- when we all share common space there has to be a convention on what is and what isn't acceptable. The quiet walk is merely an example to illustrate an alternative activity that is prevented by another activity (jet-skiing in this example). I wasn't suggesting in its own right that it was somehow superior, but that when one prevents many the one surely the one must give way? On a winters day there are lots of people out walking down there...

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 31 Dec 2006, 16:17

2jamie wrote: Porty The quiet walk is merely an example to illustrate an alternative activity that is prevented by another activity (jet-skiing in this example).

You were very forceful "I have equally as much right". This is a critical point in your argument. I will assume that you accept that you have no statuatory right to a quiet walk on Portobello Beach.

2jamie wrote: I wasn't suggesting in its own right that it was somehow superior, but that when one prevents many the one surely the one must give way?

I'm sorry 2jamie but when one or many prevent something that is not anothers right, it is impossible to police.

Apart from that, what you are suggesting is mob-rule and it flys in the face of freedom. You are awarding yourself a right and then looking to use it to restrict the freedom of others. Its not on.

2jamie · Post by **2jamie** » 31 Dec 2006, 18:08

If I am being too forceful then I apologise. I was perhaps being unnecessarily pre-emptive about the "we-have-the-right-to ski" argument. I am not suggesting mob rule, rather a way of recognising appriopriate and inappropriate use of common areas.

Anyway it was *last* years resolution not to get into unnecessary arguments

I thought I'd voice a different opinion on the board to the (admirably) concessionary one that yourself and bob were making. I don't claim to be representative of the petition, but I am at least an example of a signatory. I felt it was important to represent that view when people such as Freestyler log on looking with genuine curiosity. I have got angry because there as always an attempt to dismiss such situations as nimbyism rather than acknowledge the possibility of a genuine greivance. Having chatted to FreeS. we have got to some sort of conclusion and I am going to leave it there.

I *am* looking for a comprimise -- its just that any kind of comprimise I see I don't see being effective without something to back it up. There is simply no way for either the authorities or a voluntary body to enfore an agreement on an enevitable refusenik minority. I hope I am wrong, but I least hope that I have put forward a set views that can be addressed.

Happy New Year all,

2jamie

Thumper* · Post by Thumper* » 31 Dec 2006, 18:49

2jamie wrote:Ah Thumper you are making my case much better than I could. The fact that you perceive me to seek a ban because because I am "envious" of your "rich mans toy" is its own story. This probably explains why owners want to seek the maximum audience and hug the beach.

Freestyler; I'm sorry, but I am inclined to believe that Thumper is more representative of the mentality than your sober assessments.

Oh and no, oddly, I wouldn't want to "ban the M1"; it is an important if not crucial part of our transport infrastructure. The ego-massaging of overgrown children with a self-important view of their toys is not quite of the same importance.

You relly need to learn to read.....probably as much as you need to listen............ and understand

Views like your's will go nowhere......trust me...... misrepresenting a persons comments to your own end is as old as the hills.......... and gets people voting with there feet............ including your Parlimenterians ........

Thumper* · Post by Thumper* » 31 Dec 2006, 18:52

And whislt I think about it ............ Some of you Porto People really dont like the world at all do you ............

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: Funpark - Licensed Snooker Club

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"Turn first floor of the building into a private licensed snooker club and the demolition of a portion of the building"

Got the notification through the post today - i'll be gutted if this goes ahead - we live right across from the Funpark. Its bad enough just now with the engine revving / car stereos & people noise just now.... add booze into the mix and i fear the worst.....

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Robin!
portyobsessed

Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 315
Location: Brunstane
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject:

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Surely a private snooker club would have better clientel?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 31 Dec 2006, 19:22

I've Jet Skied on two occasions both times in Cleveland USA. A different situation from Porty Beach but a city too. I hired the skis from a private business and one had to have a valid car driving licence to take charge of the vehicle. The hire was for an hour and the first and last 4 or 5 minutes were spent going very slowly and quietly around the jettys where all the yachts were moored. The rule was to be as quiet as one could be.It was only when one was fairly far out into the lake that one was allowed to go at any real speed. Thereafter there was no restriction on how close to the shore one could go.

I don't want to argue with you 2jamie but we livein one of the freeest countries in the world and every little impingment is like cancer. All it takes is a few people claiming to be entitled to a quiet walk or a noise free neighbourhood and others start to believe it. Its a falsehood.

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

Jetski danger and petition

Debate...

debate?

jet ski noise

Re: jet ski noise