New Portobello High School- Where and how?

[Bob Jefferson]

And not forgetting Portobello Rugby Club, as I see Ed is logged on.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Think you require a reality check on the definition of the word terrible.

Ok you got me on my use of language.

Nah, using the word once may have been careless? However, twice with elaboration and after being asked to clarify is deliberate.

Succint will follow.

[Keir Hardie]

I think another piece of the jigsaw puzzle was put in place at the LDC meeting tonight when Ewan Aitken gave John Ferrier of Portobello Thistle an assurance that the playing fields would be remaining and that John's long-established football club was very much part of the equation for the re-modelled park. Indeed, there is a great opportunity to extend the great work that John does for the local community through after-hours use of school facilities, including all-weather pitches. If he is smart he will negotiate improved changing facilities as well.

We should be looking to extract the maximum community benefit from every square centimetre of the site that isn't required for housing and we have a unique opportunity to do just that.

Do we have indications from the council as to how many all weather pitches would be provided? Have we been told how much money is available for these "extras". Will these pitches be available 24/7 or will they be restricted to the janitorial cover provided by the school (as is the case at some other schools where facilities are only available until lunch time on a Saturday and not at all on a Sunday). Are there likely to be planning issues installing floodlit pitches in an exclusively residential area?
What does John Ferrrier have to do to secure use of the pitches he uses at present, and will this be the same process under the proposals?
Again, many questions, but the answers determine whether the outcome is the utopia you describe, or a facility which is not really all singing, all dancing, available for all (albeit a nice little earner for the council).
As the council haven't yet come forward with any crude figures we don't know whether their "self financing" proposal will stretch to all these aspirations.

[Dadaist]

Hey there Mr Mundi

what did poor portobellosite do to Mr. M to receive such torturous replies

Exist?

Disagree?

My cat is called Oscar, by the way. He is a predator and acts in a certain way because it is his nature. In the absence of his favourite toys he will pounce on any of an array of small things and delight in rolling around with them and giving them a small nip or paw if they try to escape.

Sometimes though, he gets into a fight with the cat next door - and then it's all blood, fur and noise.

[Dadaist]

As the council haven't yet come forward with any crude figures we don't know whether their "self financing" proposal will stretch to all these aspirations

The pro-school crowd are fond of reminding their opponents to get with "reality" - a clever slur as it gives one the high ground by default and forces the object of the slur to give a defence of reality itself, even if they existed within its bounds anyway.

I had hoped to be able to rely on seanie for analysis of his own side as well as the arguments of the opposition - but even though he said that (for example) consultation under PPP can be sham, he failed to respond to me when I asked if CEC consultation could also be sham.

I think it's entirely relevant to wonder if all the various aspirations of the pro-school lobby can be made reality, although I fear now that to approach our expert-in-residence with such issues will only result in an answer which serves to defend his view - as to do otherwise would risk giving concessions to those who seek to oppose this plan. I'd love to be proved wrong on this point.

[Stephen McIntyre]

Personally I would like to see St Johns re-developed on the current site, utilising the unused tennis courts, and the space from St Bernadettes, (tin building). The high school of course is a more complicated manner.

I want my children to have a good education in reasonably sized classes with adequate classrooms and happy teachers.

They will need a decent high school in a few years time, whether or not that will be the new Holyrood or a new PHS that remains to be seen.

I also want them to have the park to play in/walk around/and golf in, (if they so desire). The choice would be great. Not having the choice would be terrible. What would you like

Firstly, I respect your wishes. St John’s is a dear place for me. All three of my children had a very happy time there. A shared campus with PHS would not have naturally occurred to me and in some ways it is a puzzlement why it has been put forward, although I accept there will be cost savings. Whilst I agree that St John’s would benefit from a new school the powers at be have decreed that the need is not as great as PHS and it is therefore quite far down the pecking order. As far as I know, other than the current proposal there is no intent to rebuild or relocate St John’s.

I digress and I did promise you a succinct synopsis of “what I wantâ€

[Dadaist]

[quote="McIntyre"]I would like “stone-throw accessâ€

[Stephen McIntyre]

Thanks Dadaist.

What a thread this is!!! What are your personal high and low points/posts so far? I mean out of all posts not just yours.

[Dadaist]

Thanks Dadaist.

What a thread this is!!! What are your personal high and low points/posts so far? I mean out of all posts not just yours.

Tough question. I'm not avoiding answering - I just want to consider it for a while. 48 pages deserves some sort of analysis - objective and otherwise. There's been almost 10,000 views in the space of a week.

[bbbrown]

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index ... =390722006

interesting idea......looks like some councillors are thinking about alternatives......

[Mrs Mangle]

I have also read this piece of tripe in the Evening Rag.

Be assured i was at last night's meeting of the East LDC, (held in the Hays Business Centre) and at no time did any Councillor or any other Council Offical say that they would consider building the " New " school at Calvery Park. 2 members of the public asked if they had considered it as a possible choice, and as the paper suggests, it would create a Campus of over 2,000 children, it wolud then be a Saftey Issuse.

Also attending last nights meeting were a few Residents of Gilbertstoun/Gilberston, and they were objecting to the Golf Course being put at their back doors, more traffic, more people, etc. So not only do the Golfer not want to go, the people of that area don't want the Golfers.

The chap who runs Portobello Thistle, was at least a happy chappy, he's been assured come what may, his players are safe.

Yet amother meeting that was taking over by Schools and Golfe Course.

[Dadaist]

Thanks Dadaist.

What a thread this is!!! What are your personal high and low points/posts so far? I mean out of all posts not just yours.

I was going to think long and hard about this, read through everything again etc etc - but I end up with the answer which popped right into my head the moment you asked it with some very minor tweaks and additions.

High Point : seanie joining and giving us neutral facts and figures in a professional manner

Low Point : seanie's "scaremongering is de rigeur so here's some of my own" which for me was a bit like finding out that the Wizard Of Oz was just some guy behind a screen.


Honourable mention to our new mystery guest Rex_Mundi who I hope never drops the ball, but stays on it.

[Dadaist]

I have also read this piece of tripe in the Evening Rag.

[Bob Jefferson]

I was there too Mrs M, sitting just behind bbbrown in fact. I can confirm that the idea to re-site PHS on Cavalry Park came from a member of the public, and not Andrew Holmes as reported. The journalist concerned phoned me a couple of hours ago and I told her that I felt she had mis-represented the meeting.

There was no mention either of the welcome John Ferrier received from Ewan Aitken and the important role Portobello Thistle will play in the configuration of the park and the use of community facilities. This was edited out from the article apparently.

I hadn't been to an LDC meeting for a while. In theory, they are a great idea.

[bbbrown]

thinking about cavalry park.......

it is already a school site, and you could not ask for a better park land setting...

a combined campus could offer many advantages and a unique educational opportunity, fitting with the Scottish Executives drive against sectarianism, to help break down the barriers of segregated schooling....

lots of playing fields in situ....

with old PHS gone...St Johns would have a larger site to rebuild the school...

Portobello Park could be upgraded to fully realise its potential as a green site we can all be proud of....improved football pitches and changing areas, astro turf pitches (perhaps the PITZ could relocate there after all) a running track, improved golf course.....the possibilities are endless

why so dismissive mrs mangle?

[Stephen McIntyre]

why so dismissive mrs mangle?

Why so ignorant bbbrown?

[Poppy]

If this joint campus were to built at Cavalry Park, what would be the effect on the Nature Reserve? I believe that permission to have flood-lighting at Cavalry Park was refused on those grounds [no pun intended ]?

[Dadaist]

why so dismissive mrs mangle?

Why so ignorant bbbrown?

Why so confrontational Stephen McIntyre?

[Stephen McIntyre]

Poppy, welcome to the debate. You are obviously familiar with story of the chinese duck, which is def true

[Stephen McIntyre]

I was there too Mrs M, sitting just behind bbbrown in fact. I can confirm that the idea to re-site PHS on Cavalry Park came from a member of the public, .

Bob can you rule out the possibility that it was in fact bbbrown who suggested the idea at the meeting last night and then today posted infering that the idea had come from some councillors?

This was bbbrown's earlier post (12:10) two hours later it was edited for some reason at 2.12pm. (my comp time).

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index ... =390722006

interesting idea......looks like some councillors are thinking about alternatives......

[bbbrown]

this is jolly amusing, and i could indulge the paranoia here...

but can i just point out please...

1) i was not in attendance last night, so i can rule out the possibility that i made any contribution to the meeting.....
2) i posted a link to the news story cause i thought it an idea that might merit discussion as an alternative to losing 70% of Portobello Park (is this thread not about where to put a new PHS?)
3) the "some reason" i edited my post was because the link was not pointing to the correct story.....

thank you...

[Stephen McIntyre]

this is jolly amusing, and i could indulge the paranoia here...

but can i just point out please...

1) i was not in attendance last night, so i can rule out the possibility that i made any contribution to the meeting.....

Thanks for clearing that up

2) i posted a link to the news story cause i thought it an idea that might merit discussion as an alternative to losing 70% of Portobello Park (is this thread not about where to put a new PHS?)

This is what I was refering to when I asked the "ignorant" question. You thought a school at cavalry park "an idea that might merit discussion".

You follow this thread in detail, surely you must have noticed the discussions which feature this very site? Its been going on for weeks if not months. You posted a link to an article which tells you why it is not a contender. Are you unaware that holyrood school is surronded by green-belt, and that it is an urban wildlife conservation area?

[Maria]

I was at last night's meeting too, though don't recognise it from the article in the 'Evening News'.

BTW I was sitting behind Green Dream

[Bob Jefferson]

Were you? Oh sorry bb, I'm not very good at lip-reading.

[Keir Hardie]

The “newâ€

[Epykat]

Does anybody think that the huge piece of 'community parkland' will be in one chunk, or that it might be two separate strips down each side of the site?

[Rex_Mundi]

1) i was not in attendance last night, so i can rule out the possibility that i made any contribution to the meeting.....

I was at last night's meeting too, though don't recognise it from the article in the 'Evening News'.

BTW I was sitting behind Green Dream

Where was I Did anyone see me Was I there too

_________________________________________________________
“Will the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands? And the rest of you, if you'll just rattle your jewelry.â€

[Maria]

Does anybody think that the huge piece of 'community parkland' will be in one chunk, or that it might be two separate strips down each side of the site?

Last night, John Ferrier of Portobello Thistle FC was assured by council officials that the proposal was for development of the golf course only and that the playing pitches up by Milton Road would be retained.

[Epykat]

So are the football pitches also doubling as the Community Parkland?

[Maria]

So are the football pitches also doubling as the Community Parkland?

No, they would be additional to the parkland developed on the Golf Course site.

[Stephen McIntyre]

I expect that the council would raise much more profit (oops, sorry, I meant capital receipts) from lots of flats than from a smaller number of larger dwellings,

Its hardly rocket science.

therefore under the rationale that they are committed to providing affordable housing,

Where did you get this rationale? Do you mean the minimum 20%?

the council are likely to build flats, and given that there are already recently constructed four storey flats next to the golf course, that this is likely to be what they go for.

I thought that the "neighbour height" planning rule had been relaxed across much of Edinburgh, at least in non-conservation areas? If so, you missed an excellent scare mongering opportunity.

I agree there will def be flats on the development and a lot of them. However, my money is on down by the railway, where there will likely be less complaints about height (maybe even 5 or 6 storeys ) and fewer, if any, restrictions. The development will slope down to town houses as it moves up into the former golf course. (opinion)

In my opinion the only way the council will build either the school or houses on the Park Avenue side will be if the residents behave "unreasonably" for long enough. I had a real life experience of this type in Falkirk!!! It was not pleasant. Some people who are consumed forget that they are dealing with other people. I am guilty of it myself from time to time. When people are openly or systematically abused they tend to bear grudges. If they then win the grudged contest they are less likely to be benevolent. That's not rocket science either. Scare mongering?

You can put a lot of flats on 17(?) acres if you build them 4 storeys high. What do you think?

I think so too.

Out of interest, do you have an alternative solution for the children of our community, that is both viable and deliverable in the foreseeable future?

[Stephen McIntyre]

Dada, did you ever produce a scare mongering card?

[Dadaist]

Dada, did you ever produce a scare mongering card?

McIntryer - you are due an entire issue of POL argument cards all of your very own, I just haven't drawn them yet.

the original set is here :

http://www.radiofreeporty.org/argument/index.html

this is your thread - are you giving me permission to use POL Argument Cards here?



...but in answer to your question - no, not scaremongering - that's a new one. McCarthyism I would love to use on McCrow :



...but you use at least 2 cards per post, and thats just the general ones, not the limited edition McIntyre ones I have in mind.

It's your thread, and your decision to let the genie out of the bottle!

I promise to use sparingly though.

[seanie]

I had hoped to be able to rely on seanie for analysis of his own side as well as the arguments of the opposition - but even though he said that (for example) consultation under PPP can be sham, he failed to respond to me when I asked if CEC consultation could also be sham.

I think the communities reaction to these proposals will have a very real impact on their implementation.

Why proceed with the proposal in the face of local opposition? The outrage of their constituents. The people who vote for them.

If, as we’ve been informed, this community is dead against these proposals then these proposals are dead in the water (at least for now). Only a kamikaze politician would try to force them through. And most politicians have a sense of self-preservation. Almost everything they do is unpopular with someone. But they avoid doing things unpopular with everyone.

The sham consultation of PPP? Well, if you really want, I can give detailed reasons why it frequently turned out that way. Why the structure of the process and the contractual relationship engendered it, given the interests of the parties involved. I can explain it.

Someone else will have to explain why these proposals will be forced through regardless. Who would do it and why?

Is there some mysterious svengali with a pathological hatred of the golf-course?

A vendetta against Portobello?

Most politicians, whatever other qualities they posess, aren't particularly brave. Those who stand up and defy their constituents tend not to survive as politicians. Politicians tend to trim their sails to the prevailing wind.

Even if they hope the wind might change.

I think it far more likely that, even if this really is the only option, they'll put it on hold if a few people kick up a fuss, a few show enthusiasm, and most sit on the fence.

It'll be easier for them to sit and wait for the wind to change. Which given the deteriorating condition of the schools may well come about sooner or later.

The consultation process is probably limited in one very important way. If people really object to these proposals they can certainly put them on ice. But they'll only be able to kill them if a genuine viable alternative is found. Without that these proposals will sit on a shelf gathering dust till the situation deteriorates to such a point that there's enough community support to become politically viable again.

Now a delay might result in a better option coming up. Or it might end in an even worse deal than the one on offer. That's unknowable.

[Keir Hardie]

[I thought that the "neighbour height" planning rule had been relaxed across much of Edinburgh, at least in non-conservation areas? If so, you missed an excellent scare mongering opportunity. ?

I have no interest in scare mongering. I really just want ALL the facts.

I agree there will def be flats on the development and a lot of them. However, my money is on down by the railway, where there will likely be less complaints about height (maybe even 5 or 6 storeys ) and fewer, if any, restrictions. The development will slope down to town houses as it moves up into the former golf course. (opinion)

My comment wasn't about where the flats might be, but about how many there might be.

In my opinion the only way the council will build either the school or houses on the Park Avenue side will be if the residents behave "unreasonably" for long enough. I had a real life experience of this type in Falkirk!!! It was not pleasant. Some people who are consumed forget that they are dealing with other people. I am guilty of it myself from time to time. When people are openly or systematically abused they tend to bear grudges. If they then win the grudged contest they are less likely to be benevolent. That's not rocket science either. Scare mongering?

This is a veiled threat. It goes against the right of individuals to express their views, and although you are no doubt correct that some politicians may take malicious delight in vengeful decisions, I don't believe that this is the norm, and certainly don't think residents should be frightened into submission. I think our councillors are better than that.

Out of interest, do you have an alternative solution for the children of our community, that is both viable and deliverable in the foreseeable future?

That is exactly why so many people are asking for option appraisal, to satisfy themselves that this seemingly drastic option is thye only way to go.