Scottish Parliament

[wangi]

Today's the first day of debate at the (nearly finished) Scottish Parliament. The building is four years late and nearly eleven times over budget (£431M vs. £40M). So what's your view? Complete waste of money? Crap architecture? Good stuff?

Personally I think the final building is striking and worth the cash. Offices for MPs down in London cost more... And more money can, and should, be spent on healthcare, police, etc but lets make a statement and be proud of ourself once in a while!


http://pbase.com/wangi/parliament

[mr magnolia]

The original budget was always twaddle.

Don't really know about the final costs - £90 each for every resident in Scotland; cheaper than the M77 extension currently being built....

Cetainly very striking with all those hairdryers hanging on the walls.

[Guest]

It's an investment in the future of Scottish people for generations to come. Let the dust settle. It was worth every penny.

[ifstar]

The wooden slats look terrible.
It doesn't really fit in with the surrounding buildings.
Something going double over budget is bad but ten times is a scandal - the original budget may have been twaddle but to be that wrong is a joke.
I can't think of anything to note that the SMP's have actually done - all i can remember is the farce with Section 8 clause a little while back.
Personally i don't see why they couldn't of had something for less that half the cost with the other 200 million being spent on more worthwhile causes like trying to sort of the NHS in scotland or creating projects for young people to give them something to do at nights or a number of other thinks that are more worthwhile than spending thousands on fancy tables etc.

When you are allowed to spend other peoples money to make your house as nice as possible then you will go overboard - and thats what has happened here. On the day the first MSP's moved in, to hear them complaining about the space/storage was a slap in the face for the scottish people and something we could have done without hearing.

[Mimpty]

[quote="mr magnolia"]
Cetainly very striking with all those hairdryers hanging on the walls.[/quote]

I thought they were guns.

(Have just read the masterclass on "quoting" and thought I'd try)

[Porty]

The building is one thing, the waste of money on so called devolvement is quite another. Personally, I am embarrased by the whole idea of a Scottish Parliament. We do not need it. I cannot imagine anyone ever feeling justifiably proud of it. What on earth was wrong before? We already lived in one of the free countries of the World.

The new building is a home for third rate politicians.I wish it would go away. I defy anyone to quantify or justify its existence. The only possible merit has been the death knell of the SNP.

[wangi]

Porty,

The building is one thing, the waste of money on so called devolvement is quite another. Personally, I am embarrased by the whole idea of a Scottish Parliament. We do not need it. I cannot imagine anyone ever feeling justifiably proud of it. What on earth was wrong before? We already lived in one of the free countries of the World.

The new building is a home for third rate politicians.I wish it would go away. I defy anyone to quantify or justify its existence. The only possible merit has been the death knell of the SNP.

If we are now overgoverned then lets get rid of the Westminister parliament? Or our many local authories which simply do not make sense when you think about levels of economy?

I wouldn't say devolution has killed the SNP - their crap M(S)P's have done that all by thereself - with special note to the former leader.

Also, you are free to increase the standard of MSPs by standing for election yourself.

[wangi]

It doesn't really fit in with the surrounding buildings.

The Palace doesn't "fit in", Dynamic Earth doesn't "fit in", the new flats don't, the Tun doesn't, the Scotsman doesn't... The area is eclectic. And the site the Parliament is on was a dump.

[mr magnolia]

It was also owned by Scottish and Newcastle - one of the biggest objectors to devolution...
But business is business of course.

And the fact that the Scotsman gambled their investment money on their new site before the choice was officially made doesn't raise ANY questions in my mind about the process of choosing a site....

[bellybabe]

I don't really care too much what it looks like, because as has been said, it's in an "eclectic" area (and I really hate the "Our dynamic earth" building, and why did it change its name anyway?).
However, I do think it's a waste of money. All buildings overrun projected costs, sure, but by over 1000%? That's just crazy. I wouldn't mind that so much if I hadn't been asked to pay for it. I wonder how members of the Scottish Exec would feel if having given permission for the new Virtual Elder Sibling building, they were then made to pay for it, whatever the escalating cost...
As for devolution, I was always in favour of it, but I haven't noticed them actually doing very much. They made some brave steps but only very quietly, as if they're not quite sure of themselves, and on most big things they just go running to Westminster with Sewell motions, do they not?
I'm not a big fan of Westminster myself, but Gavin Strang has done a lot more for me that my MSP has.
I see opinion is neatly split down the middle so far though, which I think is actually very good, since if you read the press and believe them, nobody anywhere is in favour of the project!

[Maria]

The main problem was that the contract was made on a "cost plus" basis, was it not? The central premise being that the builders were not tied to an agreed cost but were assured of a percentage of any overspend that proved necessary. Therefore, it was in the contractor's own interests to go over the projected budget and build completion dates. Normally, a company would be penalised for every day a project fell behind completion...but most assuredly not in this case.
No individual would commit to such a ludicrous contract but funnily enough Government does!

[Porty]

Also, you are free to increase the standard of MSPs by standing for election yourself.

The same applies for Westminster. The Scottish Parliament is one of those idea that sounded good at the time (to some folk , not me) but in reality its a non event, a sham, a waste of resource. I think Blair did brilliantly at appeasing the Nationalists; "go on then, have a go, have what you want" he knew all along that it would be the same shit different building.

Are you genuinely pleased that we have a Parliament. Can you name a couple of areas where it has improved the general lot of the Scottish people?

We have had 3 Fiirst Ministers each one has a sullied reputation, not exactly something to be proud of, is it?

[Sandra]

Wangi

I agree it is a striking building - its even better inside and will be fantastic when its finished. Over time I believe people will forget the cost and become proud of it.

[Gemini]

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid ... =436702004

[wangi]

The main problem was that the contract was made on a "cost plus" basis, was it not?

Not keeping up with the enquiry or anything... But the contract they used was well suited to "set in stone" requirements list and fully planned structure. The parliament was neither and that's why it was a farce...

Consider one of their other options - Forth Ports offered a £40M fixed cost build down in Leith... They would have known what they were doing!

[wangi]

Are you genuinely pleased that we have a Parliament. Can you name a couple of areas where it has improved the general lot of the Scottish people?

Yes, and no I couldn't - and I couldn't for Westminister either. I guess free health care for the elderly must be a major plus for some.

We have had 3 Fiirst Ministers each one has a sullied reputation, not exactly something to be proud of, is it?

It's the norm these days... I'm not exactly enamoured woth the whole Labour party - I'd have the Conservatives over them! But I do think the axes have been out since day once and the press have persued a very negative agenda - this is not a scenario which promotes achievement!

And, BTW, I really can't decide if Scotland would be better off independent - I used to, and then I was dead against it, and now...

[Porty]

"The 64-page report - funded with £20,000 of taxpayers’ cash - found that a large majority of voters felt let down by the new parliament, and regard the Scottish Executive as little more than a ‘puppet government’. "

Thanks Gemini.

Wangi, don't really want to get into this too much in case we fall out. I have to admit I'm so against the SP that I may be beyond rationale discussion. There is no redemption as far as I am concerned.

You make a valid point about the old folks Health Care. If they decide against smoking in public even better. Doesn't change the fact that we did not need them to either.

[ifstar]

It doesn't really fit in with the surrounding buildings.

The Palace doesn't "fit in", Dynamic Earth doesn't "fit in", the new flats don't, the Tun doesn't, the Scotsman doesn't... The area is eclectic. And the site the Parliament is on was a dump.

I don't think the Scotsman building looks that bad, Dynamic Earth looks like a mini version of the millenium dome - i think with a normal roof then it would have looked better as the colour of the building and the entrance steps up to it look quite nice, i am not really sure where the new flats are and i have no idea what the Tun is.

The site may well have been a dump but its big enough to have built several new blocks of flat for housing. I know they were just renting the last place but did that just have the debating area or did it have office space too? As for the "relection bubbles" or whatever they are called - does anyone think these are actually going to be used to the MSP's to think about their job or more likely they will be to have a nice view when having a munch?

The original idea of the scottish parliment sounded good but it was basically a Labour party gimme to win the election - same with Wales. I can't think of any party that i would be happy to have in Government up here - didn't like Jack McConnell anyway but his behaviour over the whole meetup in France where he decided it would be better to attend a golf dinner just showed him up. John Swinney took a party that had a chance of getting to power and put them 3 places back - Alex Salmond whole political campaign when he was originally in charge was the film Braveheart. Would be very interested to see what would happen if the Lib Dems got into power as they are probably the party i have most respect for.

//steps off soapbox and passes on to next person

[wangi]

Some comments from my picture (reverse order):

From: Stewart Lloyd-Jones Date: 08-Sep-2004 13:27 | delete
Sorry, Lee, I can't agree with you about this building. I think it is ugly, and not worth the £400m that we, the Scottish taxpayers, have had to fork out. It is an interesting building, but it is not imposing enough to be a parliament - art gallery or concert hall, perhaps - national parliament: tucked out of sight at the bottom of the Canongate - absolutely not. You can get a lot of hospitals and schools for £400m.

From: Judes Pics Date: 08-Sep-2004 01:22 | delete
Very interesting looking building, and a very cool shot of it!

From: Richard Waugh Date: 07-Sep-2004 22:54 | delete
I like it Lee, agrre with you re the price etc compared to offices in London, wish the press would give it a rest, could have been better managed but hey it'll be some building when its done

From: northstar37 Date: 07-Sep-2004 20:26 | delete
My brother in law worked on the windows. It's unusual looking!

From: Zak Date: 07-Sep-2004 15:42 | delete
it would of been much cheaper if they just bought a few caravans

From: adalberto tiburzi Date: 07-Sep-2004 15:12 | delete
Really cool, and reminds me of a song ...the pipes the pipes are calling... No? Ok.

From: Dominic Kite Date: 07-Sep-2004 15:10 | delete
I love it - I think it's a beautiful building, unfortunately the debate over the cost, is going to overshadow the fact that we've now got a building and a parliament to be proud of. And it's a great photo Lee!

From: Lee Kindness Date: 07-Sep-2004 13:33 | delete
Oh yeah, this is a long story! These guys couldn't arrange a piss-up in a brewery - never mind a country...

But saying that I think the final building is striking and worth the cash. Offices for MPs down in London cost more... And more money can, and should, be spent on healthcare, police, etc but lets make a statement and be proud of ourself once in a while!

From: dazedgonebye Date: 07-Sep-2004 13:26 | delete
11 times over budget? If the parliment was in charge of that one, you should never let that dangerous bunch meet again!

[Sandra]

Porty

Why don't you have a visit to the Scottish Parliament before you totally pass judgement, you may change your mind when you see it in the flesh, just a thought mind.

S

[Porty]

Porty

Why don't you have a visit to the Scottish Parliament before you totally pass judgement, you may change your mind when you see it in the flesh, just a thought mind.

S

Sandra, the same reason I don't go to a Brothel. The building may look ok but its employees earn their crust from waste excretion.

[Porty]

Topic ender if ever I saw one.

[Guest]

No it isn't. And don't be rude to Sandra. She's a friend.

[ecm]

Yeah, well said Alex- Porty you're a rude man who needs a spanking.
Get back to the penthouse right now and assume the position!

[Porty]

I didn't mean to be rude. I must re-read. My apologies if I offended you Sandra. You asked a valid question, I gave you an honest answer.

[Porty]

Yeah, well said Alex- Porty you're a rude man who needs a spanking.
Get back to the penthouse right now and assume the position!

I'm not going through that again. You are a nightmare when you've been drinking.

[Guest]

I don't know if Sandra's around so I'll try to lighten the tone. I'm sure it wasn't meant to be abrupt. Please feel free to slap me down when I do the same thing.

[Porty]

Scottish Parliament-Spanking, no way the POL is frivolous or silly.

[ecm]

I'm not going through that again. You are a nightmare when you've been drinking.

Ooh, you sound just like Ali!

[wangi]

Why don't you have a visit to the Scottish Parliament before you totally pass judgement, you may change your mind when you see it in the flesh, just a thought mind.

Are they still planning to charge for tours?

[Porty]

Are they still planning to charge for tours?

I don't know but my money is on Yes.

[Gemini]

Personally, I think that the building is a monstrosity - white concrete panels yuk! even more yuk when they are wet. The windows at a cool £17.000 'each' , come on get real... window's of contemplation... what are they contemplating? perhaps how much more they can screw out of the Scottish People. As for the location....

The costs..... how can this ever be justified? more especially when there are some truly stunning buildings eg. Old St. Andrew's House, Royal High School to name but two, in great locations, these could easily have been utilised at a fraction of the cost.

I heard one woman on the Radio recently commenting on the 'self indulgence of the Scottish Parliamentarians/Executive' acting like egotistical maniacs. However Jacko said that we have to get on with business and forget the costs, cause it will all be worth it in the end...It will all be fabby dabby from here on in!

Most of all I am angry that £430+ million could have been better spent on the Health Service/Education and a squillion other more important issues of the Scottish People.

Even Camilla P B said the building was ghastly! and that is something coming from her - oh ghastly one.

This building is the new disgrace of Edinburgh - No - Scotland.

[Porty]

This building is the new disgrace of Edinburgh - No - Scotland.

Unusually, i agree with the thrust of what you say. However, i feel the building is a smoke screen for the true disaster that is the scottish parliament. I say forget the gift wrap, tragic as it is, and concentrate on the contents. They are not worth it.

[wangi]

Gemini, Porty,

I'm very impressed with what i've seen of the main chamber on the news etc. The cost's a farce, the site's not the best possible but it is there now and a pretty impressive building - so lets just move on. There's always folk moaning to spend cash on hospitals!!! Imagine Edinburgh today, if folk in the past didn't make an effort on civic buildings?

[ali]

When Lord "Fatty" Fraser's Report comes out later this month I hope that it will become clear that the major decisions re the location and the contract /build method were all taken at UK government level ie the Scottish Office.

The decision to proceed which was taken by the Scottish Parliament a couple of years in to the project when a certain momentum had built up was the crucial moment. The MSP's were asked to vote to go ahead on the basis of inaccurate figures about the costs incurred given to them by Donald Dewar, who blamed his civil servants. If they had known the true situation then it is likely that a halt would have been called for a re-think.

Blame is almost always apportioned wholly to the Scottish Parliament when the truth is that the reason it ended up costing so much was because of the initial decisions taken at UK cabinet and in the Scottish Office.

It hasn't helped that The Hootsman and Andrew Neill have tried to do the project down since day one and they're still at it.