(was) Local Porty bar/restaurant lacks extract ventilation

Bazza · Post by **Bazza** » 04 Aug 2011, 09:54

admin: split from Local Porty bar/restaurant lacks extract ventilation.

Denise. Can I ask why you didn't take up the offer of a visit from Bob Jefferson, one of the veteran members of this forum?

Denise Muir · Post by **Denise Muir** » 04 Aug 2011, 22:23

Ehhm, I think that's obvious, no? I've never met the guy so I'm hardly going to invite a strange man (no offence but we are on a virtual conversation site here) round to my house? Or do I need his approval to prove that I'm not making all this up? I wasn't even going to answer this but just in case it was actually a serious question, then here's a serious answer.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 05 Aug 2011, 13:54

Kieran Sylvester wrote:
Pal of Porty wrote:If they changed their menu to only 2 dishes, say hamburgers and fish and chips, I cannot see how this would help Denise if they were still cooking the same number of dishes.
ok i can see how you would think what you do, BUT this is more targeted at the prep side, and having space to avoid cross contamination to follow food hygiene standards. ..............

My thoughts exactly.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Aug 2011, 13:48

Denise Muir wrote:Ehhm, I think that's obvious, no? I've never met the guy so I'm hardly going to invite a strange man (no offence but we are on a virtual conversation site here) round to my house? .

So following that logic; why did you choose to have a public conversation on Talkporty with a bunch of strangers?

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 12 Aug 2011, 13:55

FFS......

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Aug 2011, 14:07

Is it something i said?

Denise Muir · Post by **Denise Muir** » 12 Aug 2011, 14:17

Very sorry but I don't see your logic. Isn't this network supposed to be for public (electronic) conversations about issues that are important to the public of Porty? I couldn't really have a public conversation about that by myself could I? And if I could have resolved this issue by myself, I wouldn't have gone looking for suggestions from "a bunch of strangers" (who I see as fellow inhabitants of Porty who might have useful insights/experiences to share on this subject). But what kind of logic takes you from that to having someone I don't know and might not want in person in my home? This is just silly and not what I joined this forum for. What a complete insult to all the other people who have a lot of useful things to say on this forum/thread, potentially to the benefit of community life in Portobello. If "Porty" whoever you are have nothing else useful to post about the issue I am struggling with, i.e. an unhealthy commercial establishment operating in Portobello to the detriment of not just myself but other inhabitants, and potentially also to its patrons, then I would ask you to please not waste any more of your time and those reading updates on this thread by aiming personal attacks at me. Denise

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Aug 2011, 17:39

You were made a reasonable offer for a visit from a local noteworthy who may have been able to offer assistance or support. What would it cost you to invest half an hour of your time to enlighten people to the extent of the problem?. At the moment it is virtual for us and we have no second opinion. You could be making it up. Bob, is she making it up? (How would he know?). I am not suggesting you are making it up, i just don't know. (Iv'e spoken to a few who think that you may be)

Whilst this is an internet forum it is also a community forum and many people know and have met each other. Were someone to accuse you of spreading unfounded falsehoods about one of your neighbours, how could you defend it?

I think you missed an opportunity to lend some credibility to your claims and I find it a bit strange that you declined. That's my opinion and not a personal attack.

A few months ago i suggested that your landlord ought to be your focus, He or she is letting a virtually uninhabitable flat. You thanked me for the suggestion- how did you get on?

Bazza · Post by **Bazza** » 12 Aug 2011, 17:58

Well, from my point of view, I have to take what you say with a pinch of salt, Denise. Your situation sounds awful, but I don't know if it really is, and maybe you're exaggerating, maybe you have an ulterior motive, or maybe you're being entirely truthful. I don't know. If someone else on the forum went round to yours and verified that the problem really is awful, then you'd more people on your side.

That was the only reason I asked. But if all you want is advice, and you don't mind if some of us are sceptical, then no problem

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Aug 2011, 18:26

Denise Muir wrote: What a complete insult to all the other people who have a lot of useful things to say on this forum/thread, potentially to the benefit of community life in Portobello.

"all the other people who have a lot of useful things to say"? I take it you mean the other people like yourself, who set about improving community life by making public and unsubstaniated complaints about their neighbours.

I certainly do not wish to dis or quell ideas that may improve community life, do you have any other beauties for our consideration?

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 12 Aug 2011, 22:58

...and where in this community are you all from....?

regent · Post by **regent** » 12 Aug 2011, 23:14

i have heard that there is a certain caustic humour which operates amongst regular users of this forum but i feel that suggesting that a woman invites a "stranger" to visit her flat is offensive and to continue to press the point when she politely refuses is pretty poor. She clearly does not know who the names are behind the identities given on the forum. Whether you believe the issues which she says she faces or not appears to be open for discussion but who someone invites to their home is surely up to them.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Aug 2011, 04:23

regent wrote:. She clearly does not know who the names are behind the identities given on the forum. Whether you believe the issues which she says she faces or not appears to be open for discussion but who someone invites to their home is surely up to them.

Regent; you are spot on. People are solely responsible for the invites they extend to others. And they are free to decline offers made to them. I'm fairly sure your sage-like observations have registered with others in the past.

Denise may not know who the names behind some of the identities here but she could bet her bottom dolllar that the person identifying himself as "Bob Jefferson" is in fact Bob Jefferson.

I have not discussed this issue with the so called " Bob Jefferson" but I surmise he was calling Denise's bluff with his offer to visit. Her declination speaks volumes to partially informed individuals like myself, who are a bit skeptical about the claims she makes about her living environment.

My gut instinct was to believe her, I now believe that she thinks that I think she may have a persecution complex,

Should Bob visit and report back that the problem is as described, it would be good enough for me. At present it seems like Denise does not want a publically known second opinion. There is no doubt that something stinks.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Aug 2011, 09:06

For the record, my offer was made in all seriousness and still stands. Of course, I might be a mad axe-man but statistically it is unlikely. Do I think Denise is making it all up? No, of course not. Is she exaggerating the extent of the problem? Perhaps, but as others have stated we have no way of knowing this without experiencing it for ourselves. But if the situation is even half as bad as Denise claims then it must be pretty awful and she has my genuine sympathy. If there is any way that I can help to resolve the matter, then I would be happy to do so. Some of you may recall that I was involved in mediation talks with Punch Taverns a few years back so I have 'previous' for this sort of thing.

What does Denise stand to gain? If I can verify her claims then more members of the community will sympathise with her situation and that support and help from the community is surely what she wants? Am I an independent and impartial third party? Not really. I'm probably more inclined to side with Denise and see the situation from her point of view but I will try to be as honest as I can about the extent of the problem.

Denise, if you are willing to meet I'm happy to do so initially on neutral territory. Bring a friend, whatever. I don't want to play this out in public so feel free to PM me. But if you don't want my help, I shan't be offended.

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 13 Aug 2011, 10:22

The Edinburgh Community Mediation Service in Albany Street is where Denise would get an impartial, highly trained professional Mediator who specialised in dealing with these sorts of cases. Its a free service.
Alternatively look on the Scottish Mediation Network but that will cost .....all due respect Bob as for all I know you may also be a Mediator, but you're not impartial now that this discussion is on here

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Aug 2011, 11:45

That's good advice PB and justifies Denise's decision to post here.

I have two apologies to make:

What I said about posting to a bunch of strangers was ridiculous - I'm sorry.

And I was way too caustic to Regent- I am sorry.

I hope Denise takes Bob up on his offer and follows PB's advice (she may already have been down that path) and then shares the outcomes with us.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Aug 2011, 13:48

Mediation is the way forward, but it takes both parties to agree upon this course of action. I have no training in this field.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Aug 2011, 13:53

Bob Jefferson wrote: Denise, if you are willing to meet I'm happy to do so initially on neutral territory.

Perhaps a bar on the prom?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Aug 2011, 14:31

It would be interesting to hear from other residents in the block. I think I know the occupants of at least 3 of the other flats and all are forum members. They may not live directly above the kitchen but nevertheless may be affected to some extent.

Kieran Sylvester · Post by **Kieran Sylvester** » 16 Aug 2011, 03:09

Porty wrote:
Kieran Sylvester wrote:i can vouch for the issues regarding fumes and lack of extraction and ventilation.
Are you vouching for general issues regarding fumes and lack of extraction/ventilation or the specific issues Denise is experiencing?

I think you will find that one leads to another...

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 16 Aug 2011, 17:23

So you can't say for sure, based on first hand knowledge, just like the rest of us.

Kieran Sylvester · Post by **Kieran Sylvester** » 17 Aug 2011, 00:39

Porty wrote:So you can't say for sure, based on first hand knowledge, just like the rest of us.

I probably have a little more knowledge than you over this issue so yes i can be sure...

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 17 Aug 2011, 11:16

Probably is enough for you to be sure?

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 17 Aug 2011, 22:14

.....objection m'lud......this is getting wearisome like most of the discussions on here....

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 17 Aug 2011, 23:09

I wish there was a 'like' button on here - I'd 'like' the last two posts.
I suppose now I'll get asked to list my reasons for liking, verify with witnesses, get the King of Portobelly to sign a degree and have to hand over a brown envelope to get the PortoNostra off my case....

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 18 Aug 2011, 10:17

Kieran Sylvester wrote:Thats ok Epykat, Having worked there i know all the truth regarding this magnificent establishment and how it works, however i have stood up for Denise because what she says is in fact true, knowing Amanda too, i also know it's the truth but regardless, i hope Denise can sort something out not only for her physical health but for her sanity as she will get nothing out of Amanda. Good luck Denise, best wishes for your cause.

I defer. Why on earth didn't you just say that at the outset. Would have provided a useful insight.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 18 Aug 2011, 10:20

Puerto bella wrote:I wish there was a 'like' button on here - I'd 'like' the last two posts.
I suppose now I'll get asked to list my reasons for liking, verify with witnesses, ....

I can't think of many examples where people have been asked to factually substantiate their "likes" or "opinions".

You may be getting confused with the reaction to claims, very often self- contradictory, made by some posters on a variety of issues.

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 18 Aug 2011, 17:20

what claims?

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 18 Aug 2011, 17:22

I'd 'like' your posts too PuertoBella

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 18 Aug 2011, 17:50

Watch out Epy - we'll both end up with horses' heads in our beds at this rate.

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 18 Aug 2011, 20:29

Puerto bella wrote:Watch out Epy - we'll both end up with horses' heads in our beds at this rate.

Nah, I think we're more likely to get banned first. Anyway, it would be a pony's head since there will be loads of those milling around the 'school in the park' along with the bunny rabbits

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 18 Aug 2011, 20:31

Puerto bella wrote:what claims?

I think he's talking about the blatant vacuous lying P......

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 20 Aug 2011, 13:27

Epykat wrote:
Puerto bella wrote:what claims?
I think he's talking about the blatant vacuous lying P......

I'm talking about claims such as "there are other viable alternatives for the school" (as opposed to Portobello Park).

Personally, i see nothing wrong in asking someone who makes this type of statement to substantiate, do you?

The first couple of hundred times one hears "we speak for the significant majority" one can laugh it off as ridiculous, whilst simultaneously asking for some evidence in support. When such a statement is subsequently evidenced as being blatantly untrue and continues to be repeated, it becomes vacuous lying. Over the years that I have posted here. There's been dozens of similar claims, mostly emanating from the PPAG camp.

When PB declares a liking for someone else's post it requires no substantiation and neither it should.

As far as the extraction issue is concerned, we have Denise's story which has been backed up by Kieran, whose factual track record is dodgy at best. Even given the paucity of evidence, I still percieve that the general feeling here is to believe Denise.

However, I've yet to see any support for her claim that; making public, unsubstantated claims about one's neighbours is somehow good for the community. It comes across as vindiction.

I'm not sure what Denise expected, or what her purpose was, in posting here. if she thought she could garner support by just making claims and hoping noone would question, then she clearly came to the wrong place.

Quite a few people stopped posting here and/or on POL. In my opinion they tried to dress it up as something other than "I dislike being challenged when making a statement" and "asking for evidence is the work of bullies". This only served to fan the flames of their fundamentally flawed arguments and further diminish their personal credibility.

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 20 Aug 2011, 21:34

.....some posts make my skin crawl.......and very sad for the folk that have to live in real life with the poster. I hope that their obsessions dont dominate their lives as they appear to dominate their online chat.....life's too short.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 22 Aug 2011, 10:54

Kieran Sylvester wrote:i have only posted a few times on here, none of which are factually incorrect. .

That may be true but I doubt it. My statement was based on your contributions on Facebook. Poorly informed, poorly researched, factually bereft. For example; your inferences about Bob were disgraceful and laid bare your ignorance for all to see. You may think you can recover from that by presenting a different persona here, you can't.

Talk Porty ~ Portobello