New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Post by **wangi** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:00

Any comments or questions on the new guidelines at http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?t=3928 ?

This thread will be locked in due course, please keep things helpful and lets not have yet another retrospective look back...

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:11

wangi wrote: Any comments or questions on the new guidelines at http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?t=3928 ?

This thread will be locked in due course, please keep things helpful and lets not have yet another retrospective look back...

wangi wrote: This site is not an online democracy. It is run by one person in the hope that it is a useful resource for the community - please respect the time and effort put into it. I'll never be able to please everyone, but stand back and have a think about it..

I am thinking about it and I have been for a few weeks.

Wangi is being forthright in his admission that we are now not posting in a democracy, he is running the show himself now so its a dictatorship.

He is being equally forthright in stating that he will "never be able to please everyone". Maybe I'm misinterpreting whats transpiring here on TP. I don't believe he is pleasing anyone. Indeed I believe (and I'm looking forward not retrospectively) that he is creating a hostile environment for a community forum.

I accept that I may be totally misjudging things. Is there anyone prepared to step up and say they are pleased with the new regime?

Post by **wangi** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:17

Porty wrote:I accept that I may be totally misjudging things. Is there anyone prepared to step up and say they are pleased with the new regime?

Let me just frame that question... It's the current administration or the site is shutdown. There have been many iterations of this forum, with all those involved ultimately stepping down due to the impact it caused on their personal life. This is the final roll of the dice.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:20

wangi wrote:
Porty wrote:I accept that I may be totally misjudging things. Is there anyone prepared to step up and say they are pleased with the new regime?
Let me just frame that question... It's the current administration or the site is shutdown.

Are you prepared to hand it over to a group of people who do have the time and tolerance to manage it sensitively?

If my interpretation of whats going on here is correct then you are killing the show slowly. Its the same effect as a "roll of the dice".

You are inviting a roll of the dice, with only one potential outcome.

You may be correct about various people, indeed all of your predecessors stepping down for "personal reasons" due to the pressures endured. However, i believe that this is due to links still remaining with PCC and the formative history of the site.

Bob loved the place but took it way to seriously, he had to cos@ of the s hit he got from PCC.

As I said before we should cut the ties completely with the "founders" and let some others, who are immune to the crap that has gone before, take over for a while. A breath of fresh air.

i've said to you privately that you are destroying the place. Your "my way or the highway" approach is exactly the same approach that led to Bob's resignation crisis 2 or 3 years ago. Try and relate a dictatorship to real life hetre in portobello. It ain't going to work.

Post by **wangi** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:30

Lets move away from those questions. The intention of this thread is to get feedback on the new welcome & guidelines thread - not to have yet another discussion about the running of the site. This is how it's being run.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:41

wangi wrote:Lets move away from those questions. The intention of this thread is to get feedback on the new welcome & guidelines thread -.

The rule about avatar size is awesome, well done.

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:41

Running a site like this is a lot to take on and I can't see it working with just one person in charge. You'd burn out eventually or go mad with the hassle. Have you tried maybe core groups of people who take turns - a week or a month on and off to spread the load, or splitting the threads between different people? Maybe people would volunteer if it weren't so onerous.

Maybe the new approach of hands on moderation and the explicit 'no- democracy' approach creates more work and is a step too far, why does it need to be that involved?

Please don't give me a patronising one liner response about how things were done, it alienates relative newbies like myself. Accept that the old system is gone, kaput and its damage limitation time. Surely nobody wants the site to die off? Lets put the past to one side, stop the nonsense and think about how we can all help to improve it.

teddygirl · Post by **teddygirl** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:44

I think you are making it clear that it's your way or no way so there's not much to comment about really.
We either like it or lump it.
I have already breached the guidlines tonight by going off topic and I can't see the problem with that as it's just how conversations go a lot of the time. It's pointless starting a new thread every time you want to say something that's not entirely relevant to that thread.

Post by **wangi** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:46

teddygirl wrote:I have already breached the guidelines tonight by going off topic and I can't see the problem with that as it's just how conversations go a lot of the time. It's pointless starting a new thread every time you want to say something that's not entirely relevant to that thread.

The guideline there is with respect to the forums - as in keep it serious and on-topic in "Portobello Matters". From time to time I split and merge threads etc on G&TT.

teddygirl · Post by **teddygirl** » 11 Sep 2007, 22:48

Fair enough.

Nelson Hatstand · Post by **Nelson Hatstand** » 11 Sep 2007, 23:33

wangi wrote:It's the current administration or the site is shutdown.

Would you really shut it down? Wow.

I know you may be the current holder of the keys, but it's really the community's site, not any one person's, so I'm not sure why you would think you have the right to close it down.

Surely the sensible and fair thing to do, in the event that you didn't want to continue running the site, would be to hand those metaphorical keys over to other people, who are willing to run it on behalf of the community.

Post by **wangi** » 12 Sep 2007, 07:52

Nelson Hatstand wrote:Would you really shut it down? Wow.

I know you may be the current holder of the keys, but it's really the community's site, not any one person's, so I'm not sure why you would think you have the right to close it down.

Yes I would. Look at the history of the site, do you think yet another scalp is worth it? Many have tried their best for the community by helping to run this site, only to be hounded away from it. The reasons have been the same each time.

The current behavior some some users really does bother me - keeping note of post counts; copying posts and making tons of screengrabs really is quite worrying! Do you think that's an easy going attitude that helps out in the running of this site? This is a forum, that's all - it's not the end of the world... So how about getting a grasp and taking things less serious? Allow this site to be run.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Sep 2007, 08:57

wangi wrote:
The current behavior some some users really does bother me - keeping note of post counts;

I'm doing this. I am seriously concerned about the wellbeing of the site and monitoring activity is an excellent yardstick on how its going. Particularly with your stated goal of being more inclusive, at this juncture,it doesn't seem to be working.

wangi wrote:copying posts and making tons of screengrabs really is quite worrying! Do you think that's an easy going attitude that helps out in the running of this site? .

I believe people feel the need to screengrab and copy posts as they are so uncertain as to whether or not their posts will remain. Personally speaking;I am so unsure of the ground rules. I see posts being deleted and threads being locked for no other reason than your personal whim.

In some cases the copies and screengrabs are used for review against the forum rules to discuss and identify potential breaches. Which is exactly what the Moderators used to do.

Anyway to return to your desire for feedback on the new guidelines. I can't identify anything in them that will assist us to "move on", which you keep encouraging us to do.

(edited)

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 12 Sep 2007, 09:39

wangi wrote:Let me just frame that question... It's the current administration or the site is shutdown. There have been many iterations of this forum, with all those involved ultimately stepping down due to the impact it caused on their personal life. This is the final roll of the dice.

Well Wangi think it will be the latter before long. Such a shame as Talk Porty was such a great thing for Portobello but its a ghost town now. Still in "Forum World" its probably lasted quite a long time.

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 12 Sep 2007, 09:57

I have no problem with any of the five posting rules. All of them are common sense and similar to those on most other forums.

Like Porty, I have been keeping track of the number of posts. I have been doing that, not for any malicious reason, but because I care about this site and its future. However, when I comment on that and suggest that the decline in posts may be in some way connected with the way in which the site is being run, the thread is immediately locked.

.......So how about getting a grasp and taking things less serious? Allow this site to be run in a way in which people do not feel they are being forced out?

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 12 Sep 2007, 10:11

wangi wrote:This is a forum, that's all - it's not the end of the world... So how about getting a grasp and taking things less serious?

Yeah, how about it?

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 12 Sep 2007, 14:47

wangi wrote:
Nelson Hatstand wrote:Would you really shut it down? Wow.

I know you may be the current holder of the keys, but it's really the community's site, not any one person's, so I'm not sure why you would think you have the right to close it down.
Yes I would. Look at the history of the site, do you think yet another scalp is worth it? Many have tried their best for the community by helping to run this site, only to be hounded away from it. The reasons have been the same each time.

The current behavior some some users really does bother me - keeping note of post counts; copying posts and making tons of screengrabs really is quite worrying! Do you think that's an easy going attitude that helps out in the running of this site? This is a forum, that's all - it's not the end of the world... So how about getting a grasp and taking things less serious? Allow this site to be run.

As for post counting, this isn't the sort of site people do it seriously on, and most folk don't even know how to check the stats, let alone that you can. Here it is no more serious than celebrating a birthday; no-one really wants to admit how much time they've spent faffing around and that their number is getting higher, but getting balloons and a cheer on 'special' numbers is a sociable laugh and a perk during a long day.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 12 Sep 2007, 14:54

Rapunzell I hope you understand that we are not talking about individual members post counts We are refering to the overall activity (or lack of) recently here on TP.

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 12 Sep 2007, 14:59

Porty wrote:Rapunzell I hope you understand that we are not talking about individual members post counts We are refering to the overall activity (or lack of) recently here on TP.

It's ok, it just reminded me of the other kind, something that used to be fun and was squashed before we went into decline even though it wasn't against any rules listed.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 12 Sep 2007, 15:34

Oh dear! Looks like the forum is imploding

Any hope that folk can stop berating others and instead remember that a lot of good friendships have been formed on here ? Lots of positive things have come out of the forum as well as periods of grief. For example, Rapunzell, I stood up and addressed the CC on behalf of your Equal Access Campaign as a result of your postings on TP. Remember that feelings are easily hurt and when that happens folk hit out or, as in my case, simply decide to call it a day as an Administrator. However, I don't want TP to disappear into some sort of digital black hole and I'm pretty sure no-one else on here does either.

Like Rathbone, I've no problem with the new guidelines and am willing to give Wangi a go at doing things differently. He's seen over the years what can cause stress points and wants to avoid that. Let's not prejudge. Please!

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 12 Sep 2007, 16:18

Marya wrote: Let's not prejudge. Please!

I am not pre-judging, I am basing my thoughts on the present and recent past. I do not believe the forum is imploding - it is Wangi who is sitting with his hands on the detonator.

Constructive and factual comments have been deleted, locked etc and until it is acknowledged that all is not well than I guess the forum will eventually disappear. 'Move on' is certainly what is happening - it is just previous users are moving on to other forums!

rapunzell · Post by **rapunzell** » 12 Sep 2007, 16:35

See? I dare comment, and hardly anything harsh or groundbreaking, and I get a reaction as though I'm ungrateful. Posters have feelings too, and I don't mean the argumentative ones, but us quiet ones too! I am grateful for what we've had, the work that folk have done, and I have mostly enjoyed it, and I think it still has potential, but I can see I'd better just stay in the playpen at the moment!

Post by **wangi** » 12 Sep 2007, 16:54

rapunzell wrote:See? I dare comment, and hardly anything harsh or groundbreaking, and I get a reaction as though I'm ungrateful. Posters have feelings too, and I don't mean the argumentative ones, but us quiet ones too! I am grateful for what we've had, the work that folk have done, and I have mostly enjoyed it, and I think it still has potential, but I can see I'd better just stay in the playpen at the moment!

What are you replying to? I can't see any reply since your initial response that this looks like referring to

Puerto bella · Post by **Puerto bella** » 12 Sep 2007, 21:37

I can see exactly what Rapunzell is referring to. Its this high handed attitude. Knowing Rapunzell as an intelligent woman it offends me that someone would strike so low as to bring up the "I did this for you type argument". Come on, leave the bullying and back stabbing out if it all and lets get on with it. This constant harping on at Wangi is really starting to piss me off to be frank. I wouldn't like to do the job, I don't agree with everything he does but for goodness sake let him get on with it and lets see how it pans out instead of all these rash threats.

magbagpuss · Post by **magbagpuss** » 13 Sep 2007, 12:03

Wangi I think you're doing really well in an extremely difficult situation. I for one would miss all our wee bleathers n laughs , long life n all keep posting , cheers Magi

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2007, 17:39

I think the point Marya was making was that, generally speaking, the forum has been a force for good over the years. It has brought people together, given them a voice and the opportunity to exchange news and ideas as well as a healthy dose of gossip.

Having put so much time and effort into the forum, I certainly don't want to see it close and I don't think it will unless wangi decides that he has had enough of the personal criticism that's coming his way.

I haven't posted much recently because I'm simply bored with the forum and bored with the griping. I think most of you were bored too and the 'counting thread' was symptomatic of that.

I don't think that wangi has ever had any ambition or real desire to run things on his own but he is willing to pick up the pieces and try to keep it going to the best of his ability. For that he has my support. That doesn't mean I agree with every decision he makes.

We tried to run the forum on a fair and democratic basis. We bent over backwards to try to keep everyone happy. I, for one, don't feel that those efforts were appreciated. Maybe you get the forum you deserve.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Sep 2007, 18:38

Bob Jefferson wrote:I think the point Marya was making was that, generally speaking, the forum has been a force for good over the years. It has brought people together, given them a voice and the opportunity to exchange news and ideas as well as a healthy dose of gossip.

Why the hell do you think that so many regulars are dismayed and concerned about the demise? Yet it feels like we are the enemy. Marya said the site is imploding in reality it was management that imploded, not the regulars, who are the lifeblood of TP.

Bob Jefferson wrote:.....l unless wangi decides that he has had enough of the personal criticism that's coming his way.

There is a significant difference between criticisms of someones management techniques and personal criticisms, I like Wangi, he is a very decent and nice person. An attempt to paint the constructive critiscms that have been published here as somehow personal is akin to the unproven and ungrounded accusations that (those who must not be mentioned) used to make about bullying. Unless you can give me some examples of personal criticisms that Wangi has had to endure?

Bob Jefferson wrote:. I think most of you were bored too and the 'counting thread' was symptomatic of that.

On the contrary many people enjoyed the numbers thread.It was bit of harmless fun. And not radically different from dozens of other pointless, inspid and fruitless threads that have been a feature of POL/TP since I joined

Those type of threads are very inclusive, one can drop in, engage and say something without thinking too much about it and with no fear of being challenged. Loads of members posted on it.

Bob Jefferson wrote:.I don't think that wangi has ever had any ambition or real desire to run things on his own but he is willing to pick up the pieces...

Bob, why do the pieces need picked up?

Bob Jefferson wrote: We tried to run the forum on a fair and democratic basis.

Yep but it was the very unfair and undemocratic deletion of the numbers thread that proved too difficult for many regular users to swallow. Personally speaking, do you think people were justified in being outraged by the deletion of the numbers thread?
In any case its been made clear that any attempt at democracy is behind us now.

Bob Jefferson wrote:We bent over backwards to try to keep everyone happy..

I disagree, the vast majority were already happy, you bent over backwards trying to help those who would never be happy, and you got kicked in the teeth for trying. And rather ironically it looks like the POL/TP haters got their desire in the end.

Bob Jefferson wrote: Maybe you get the forum you deserve.

No maybes.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2007, 18:59

Porty wrote:Personally speaking, do you think people were justified in being outraged by the deletion of the numbers thread?

No. I didn't agree with the decision but so what? Even the best mod gets it wrong sometimes and Marya was undoubtedly the best mod. It certainly didn't merit what followed. Marya's resignation and what has happened since, the 'benign dictatorship', is a direct consequence of those events.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Sep 2007, 19:28

Bob Jefferson wrote:
Porty wrote:Personally speaking, do you think people were justified in being outraged by the deletion of the numbers thread?
No. I didn't agree with the decision but so what? Even the best mod gets it wrong sometimes and Marya was undoubtedly the best mod. It certainly didn't merit what followed. Marya's resignation and what has happened since, the 'benign dictatorship', is a direct consequence of those events.

Marya was the best Mod.

I was away at the time of the strike and didn't follow it blow by blow. Is this the first public admission that someone (you infer Marya) took a wrong decision?

Post by **wangi** » 13 Sep 2007, 19:37

I don't think this discussion is helpful. These things have happened, live with it. A number of people were hurt, lets not drag it up yet again.

I know I've certainly said everything I'm going to, and I'm sure Marya feels the same. There are a few threads kicking around if you really want to read through them blow by blow, but just let it lie.

wangi wrote:This thread will be locked in due course, please keep things helpful and lets not have yet another retrospective look back...

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Sep 2007, 20:09

wangi wrote:I don't think this discussion is helpful.

Therein lies part of the problem.

Locking time?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2007, 20:11

Porty wrote:I was away at the time of the strike and didn't follow it blow by blow. Is this the first public admission that someone (you infer Marya) took a wrong decision?

At the risk of wangi locking this thread, I'll answer that question. It is my personal opinion that the decision was wrong, and one I have voiced before. I haven't been part of the set-up for some time and certainly wasn't part of the management team at this particular time so I don't see how you can construe it as a 'public admission'.

But whether it was right or wrong is immaterial really as far as I'm concerned.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Sep 2007, 20:41

Bob Jefferson wrote:
But whether it was right or wrong is immaterial really as far as I'm concerned.

Wangi may well lock the thread. I hope not cos' its not really about what happened its about what happened's effect on whats happening now, if you get what I mean.

I didn't mean to land you in it with the public admission statement. What I meant was, I am unaware that there has been any other public admission that a wrong decision was made.

If Marya or any other mod did take a wrong decision what's wrong with just acknowledging, reinstating and moving on? The body of the kirk here on TP would have accepted it.

However, there has been no such acknowledgment. No open discussion. What there has been is a further segregation of topics, a warning about aggresive manner and the introduction of what you call a benign dictaor. And of course there has been a dramatic fall in activity.

here's what I think; 6 police officers was way over the top for TP,too many chiefs. 1 police officer, no matter who it is, is too few, there is no balance, you proved that yourself Bob, I've told you that before.

I would like to see 3 people running TP, just like it was in our hey day. One of those could be Wangi but I really think it would be better with completely new blood. (although we need his techy input) We have plenty of good people (none of whom I've discussed this with). Whats wrong with that idea?

And to keep it on topic; there is nothing wrong with the new guidelines but its not what they say, its how they are managed that counts.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 13 Sep 2007, 20:59

Even better than just considering my ideas or input, why not open it up to everyone, as to how they wish to be managed?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 13 Sep 2007, 21:23

I would agree that a 3 person moderator team is probably the ideal but that means 3 people who are equally committed. Very few people possess the skills required and not many in any case are prepared to put their heads above the parapet, particularly when they see how previous incumbents have been treated. I enjoyed the challenge and I learned a lot from the experience but I wouldn't do it again under any circumstances.

At the end of the day though, whether you have one mod or one hundred, the members have to respect their decisions and accept that they were made in good faith. The mistake we made in the past was trying to justify everything to everyone. Wangi clearly isn't prepared to jump through hoops and I don't blame him.

Talk Porty ~ Portobello

New welcome & guidelines - comments?

New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?

Re: New welcome & guidelines - comments?