Resignations / New administration

Post by **administrator** » 13 Aug 2007, 21:08

For several years we have striven - at times in the face of fierce criticism from opponents of the site and to the detriment of our family lives - to create a welcoming, vibrant and inclusive community forum, firmly believing it to be a worthwhile cause. Sadly, we no longer believe our efforts are justified. Like Bob, we have decided the personal cost is too high a price to pay and will no longer be running the site .

Poppy and bearcub have also decided to resign as Moderators due to a number of factors. We are very grateful to them for all the time and support they have given the forum.

Lee/Wangi remains committed, in the short term at least, to continuing with talkPorty, on the basis that any decisions taken by him in his position as sole site Administrator/Moderator will be final and without redress. His focus will be on creating an open, inviting and productive forum and on encouraging new posters.

He is providing a final lifeline for talkPorty.org and we wish him the very best for the future, whilst offering our warmest thanks for his considerable support in the past.

bellybabe and Marya

Post by **wangi** » 13 Aug 2007, 21:11

I'd like to thank Marya, Bellybabe, Poppy and Bearcub for the time they have devoted to Talk Porty, and it's a shame to see them go. However, I totally understand their reasons and agree with them.

The Forum at Talk Porty has great potential to be a useful resource for the community of Portobello. However, over the years the user base of Portobello Online and in turn Talk Porty has, in real terms, shrunk - we've become a much more insular online community. The upshot of that is we all know each other very well, but the down side is it's hard for people looking in to get involved.

Some of the debate on Talk Porty in the past has become quite aggressive and that's something that is often cited as both a reason for posters leaving and new users being uneasy about posting. That's going to change.

So, what's Talk Porty all about? It's about Portobello, it's about the local community, it's about an inclusive online community with respect for other users. Talk, gossip, discuss - while respecting the views of others. Of course our existing users - you - are key in all this.

The serious Portobello related discussions will continue to be held on Portobello Matters, with G&TT being the home of the non-Portobello discussions and less serious discussions. The Play Pen is home to parlour games (and the like) and is not archived.

I will be the sole moderator and I will do my best in that role. I will make mistakes from time to time and undoubtedly people will be disappointed. However, Talk Porty isn't going to be an experiment in democracy, please respect the time and effort put into the site. Moderation (including moves) done to posts will be noted on the posts and posters will be notified if/when posts are deleted.

The Talk Porty posting guidelines will be updated in due course. However, remember these are guidelines and not strict rules, and that I'll be the one implementing them. The guidelines will never be complete, and will continue to evolve.

Thanks/L

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 08:57

Bellybabe & Marya

You should have made your post in the Playpen

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 14 Aug 2007, 09:09

Pal of Porty wrote:Bellybabe & Marya

You should have made your post in the Playpen

Well said PoP

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Aug 2007, 09:20

Pal of Porty wrote:Bellybabe & Marya

You should have made your post in the Playpen

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 14 Aug 2007, 09:44

Thanks to all of you for all the time and effort that you put in. There's no point in hanging around if it isn't fun anymore. Good luck, and thanks for all the fish.

Wangi, I, for one am prepared to give it a go with you at the helm and I share your aspirations for the site. It will be interesting to see how we get along in a despotic regime as compared to a pseudo democratic one. However, do not expect me to stop expressing my views or to change them simply because you don't agree with them. Respect works both ways.

wangi wrote: The serious Portobello related discussions will continue to be held on Portobello Matters, with G&TT being the home of the non-Portobello discussions and less serious discussions. The Play Pen is home to less serious discussion and parlour games and is not archived.

This needs clarifying. Are the items which will be placed in the play pen less serious than the less serious items in G&TT? ...... and I still think that the play pen should be open to everyone, not just the registered - that's elitist!

Good luck.

Post by **wangi** » 14 Aug 2007, 09:56

rathbone wrote:This needs clarifying. Are the items which will be placed in the play pen less serious than the less serious items in G&TT? ...... and I still think that the play pen should be open to everyone, not just the registered - that's elitist!

That's something that'll firm up as we go along, but what I eventually typed wasn't what I intended - Play Pen isn't really for discussions. Unregistered users can now see the Play Pen, but have to logon to read it (log off to see what I mean).

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 10:10

Yep thanks to all of you and a special mention to Marya who has been a rock for Bob and POL/TP for at least as long as I have been a member. Its a pity it had to end this way. The pressure got to you in the end and the b'stards won.

Lets hope TP goes from strength to strength. There was nothing much wrong with the place prior to the counting thread deletion. Much has been made of the supposed discouragement of new users, however one has to look at the evidence. Just 3 years ago we had less than 2000 posts now we are approaching 70,000 with many of those made by new recruits during that period. If you look at the profile of TP in comparison with many other noticeboards it will be virtually identical. A hardcore of regular posters and lots of members with a few or no posts. In my opinion no style of moderation will alter that balance. As has just been proved;Moderators have the capacity to alienate regular posters but is unlikely that they will persuade others to join or be more vocal.

Good luck Wangi and if you need a hand with anything you just need to ask.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Aug 2007, 10:19

Porty wrote: Much has been made of the supposed discouragement of new users, however one has to look at the evidence. Just 3 years ago we had less than 2000 posts now we are approaching 70,000 with many of those made by new recruits during that period. If you look at the profile of TP in comparison with many other noticeboards it will be virtually identical. A hardcore of regular posters and lots of members with a few or no posts. In my opinion no style of moderation will alter that balance. As has just been proved; Moderators have the capacity to alienate regular posters but is unlikely that they will persuade others to join or be more vocal.

Well said. It's a shame it's too late for ecm and Nelson Hatstand who definitely fit into that category of alienated regular posters. Hopefully this will be less of a problem now that Marya et al has quit.

It's always fun to meet new members - recent joiners like seanie and soupie have integrated really quickly. I think they and the ones to come in the future are worth waiting for.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 14 Aug 2007, 12:30

Yes thanks to the outgoing team for all of your efforts over the past few years, but as Rathbone says, if it's turned into a chore then it's time to walk away....

Good luck to Wangi...I'm struggling to see how you can do the same as 5 people were doing previously, so hopefully it means as Porty suggested that you are going to let the forum mainly regulate itself and only jump in when there's a complaint?

We'll behave if you will

Onwards and upwards

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 14 Aug 2007, 12:33

foxy wrote:We'll behave if you will

Good luck with the admin/mod - it sure will be tough work doing it all yourself, but then again, you don't have to agree with any other mods/admins.

Post by **wangi** » 14 Aug 2007, 12:37

foxy wrote:so hopefully it means as Porty suggested that you are going to let the forum mainly regulate itself and only jump in when there's a complaint?

As mentioned above moderation will be more proactive. This idea that aggressive posting chases posters away and prevents others posting at all isn't made up - it's a real and major concern.

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 14 Aug 2007, 13:05

wangi wrote:
foxy wrote:so hopefully it means as Porty suggested that you are going to let the forum mainly regulate itself and only jump in when there's a complaint?
As mentioned above moderation will be more proactive. This idea that aggressive posting chases posters away and prevents others posting at all isn't made up - it's a real and major concern.

Personally speaking I find the prospect of pro-active moderation more of an alienation than aggressive/combative posting would ever be. Aggressive posting can be highly entertaining at times, especially when the combatants are passionate about their side of a given argument. If some folk are too sensitive to read or join in then they should just avoid. There's more than enough nice, safe, bland even, stuff on here to suit the more lily-livered.

There's enough of the nanny state out in the real day to day world. What's so terrible about a bit of freedom on here?
The idea that moderation involves reading every word posted here is ludicrous.

Anyhoo, thanks to all concerned for this place being here at all. It can't be easy coping with all the grief that's been given over the years so respect and all that.

Having said that, I have to close by saying I'm so disappointed that the Play Pen forum seems to be staying.
I suppose it's pointless asking you to reconsider getting rid of it?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 13:13

wangi wrote:
foxy wrote:so hopefully it means as Porty suggested that you are going to let the forum mainly regulate itself and only jump in when there's a complaint?
As mentioned above moderation will be more proactive. This idea that aggressive posting chases posters away and prevents others posting at all isn't made up - it's a real and major concern.

I'm not sure that it is true. The accusations that I'm aware of relating to "aggresive posting", came from those whose arguments were called into question, challenged and defeated. It is an easy foil to hide behind much easier than saying "I'm wrong" or "I stand corrected".

It could be argued that the Mods have mimiced this faux practice. The resignations came about as a result of a moderating misjudgement, which gets no mention in the resignation post.

To quote M and BB:

"For several years we have striven - at times in the face of fierce criticism from opponents of the site and to the detriment of our family lives - to create a welcoming, vibrant and inclusive community forum, firmly believing it to be a worthwhile cause. Sadly, we no longer believe our efforts are justified. Like Bob, we have decided the personal cost is too high a price to pay and will no longer be running the site . "

So from where I'm sitting the Admin team say they have resigned due to the pressures from opponents of the site. Which I know in the past has been intense and unfair.

In reality the resignations were precipitated by collective action from the most fervent supporters of the site.

How are you going to differentiate passion from aggresion? How will you rule when there is a combatative response is given to gross misrepresentation? Do you have any plans to eliminate any other posting styles?

Edit added italics and spacing

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Aug 2007, 13:19

I think that the important thing is that wangi doesn't delete aggressive posts aggressively. That would be a hypocritical act. He should make a cup of jasmine or camomile tea and, with a very light touch, erase them deftly.

As an alternative, aggressive posts could simply have their colour changed by wangi to a pastel shade - maybe peach or pink - in order to calm them down a bit.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 14 Aug 2007, 13:35

Porty wrote: The resignations came about as a result of a moderating misjudgement, which gets no mention in the resignation post.

I agree. It seems to me that perhaps the management team felt that the new regime under TP would be all different and touchy- feely once the shackes of Bob and the CC had been thrown off.

The reality is that the content and conduct of the forum was unchanged because posters perceived no difference at all

The first real disagreement of any kind, and management seem to have taken the strike as a personal attack rather than just a comment on their moderation style

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 13:35

ecm wrote:
There's enough of the nanny state out in the real day to day world. What's so terrible about a bit of freedom on here?

And the last time I looked aggression was healthy part of the real world. Indeed its a vital constituent.

ecm wrote:

The idea that moderation involves reading every word posted here is ludicrous.

100% agreed.

And I'm also with you 100% on the Play Pen deletion. Wangi has informed us that as frequent users we are "key" to to the success of TP. There is a distinct lack of support for it, so lets be done.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 14 Aug 2007, 13:47

Im also for deletion of the play pen.

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:03

Porty wrote: It could be argued that the Mods have mimiced this faux practice. The resignations came about as a result of a moderating misjudgement, which gets no mention in the resignation post.

Porty you can't make these comments when you don't know the facts surrounding the resignation of the mods.

Post by **wangi** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:20

Porty wrote:And I'm also with you 100% on the Play Pen deletion. Wangi has informed us that as frequent users we are "key" to to the success of TP. There is a distinct lack of support for it, so lets be done.

Ahha, but if we're quoting me then remember I also said that this "isn't going to be an experiment in democracy".

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:27

Wangi, what will happen when you are away on business or annual leave...will we have a locum

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:33

foxy wrote:Wangi, what will happen when you are away on business or annual leave...will we have a locum

Maybe we will be left to our own devices

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:46

wangi - as your first act as the new sole proprietor of TP, and as a gesture to the regulars who you'd like to join with you in making our forum as inclusive and welcoming as possible - why not draw a line under the whole "counting" thing and re-integrate the Play Pen threads into G&TT?

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:49

Sandra wrote:
Porty wrote: It could be argued that the Mods have mimiced this faux practice. The resignations came about as a result of a moderating misjudgement, which gets no mention in the resignation post.

Porty you can't make these comments when you don't know the facts surrounding the resignation of the mods.

People are going to speculate though, aren't they, in the absence of any comment or explanation from the mods themselves.

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 14 Aug 2007, 14:53

Dadaist wrote:wangi - as your first act as the new sole proprietor of TP, and as a gesture to the regulars who you'd like to join with you in making our forum as inclusive and welcoming as possible - why not draw a line under the whole "counting" thing and re-integrate the Play Pen threads into G&TT?

Ah, but that's a grand idea.

Go on, go on, go on etc

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:23

wangi wrote:
Porty wrote:And I'm also with you 100% on the Play Pen deletion. Wangi has informed us that as frequent users we are "key" to to the success of TP. There is a distinct lack of support for it, so lets be done.
Ahha, but if we're quoting me then remember I also said that this "isn't going to be an experiment in democracy".

Not a good response old boy. I'm not talking about a democracy I'm talking about providng the service your customers want. The two things are quite different. You are taking a big job on and your personal credibility is an issue. The message coming from the body of the kirk here on TP is ditch the Play Pen. So either we are a key part of the site or we aren't, which one is it?

Post by **wangi** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:30

For the time being the Play Pen is being kept. It'll be looked at again at some later date.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:31

Sandra wrote:
Porty wrote: It could be argued that the Mods have mimiced this faux practice. The resignations came about as a result of a moderating misjudgement, which gets no mention in the resignation post.

Porty you can't make these comments when you don't know the facts surrounding the resignation of the mods.

I do know the facts. TP was ticking along nicely until the deletion of the counting thread. A few days later almost the entire Admin?mods team resigned. Prior to this there were no outward signs that the Mods would resign. What else is to know?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:32

wangi wrote:For the time being the Play Pen is being kept. It'll be looked at again at some later date.

Funny how it was introduced at the drop of a hat.

Why not walk your pro-active talk? Who is going to be looking at it at a later date?

Post by **wangi** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:46

Porty wrote:I do know the facts. TP was ticking along nicely until the deletion of the counting thread. A few days later almost the entire Admin?mods team resigned. Prior to this there were no outward signs that the Mods would resign. What else is to know?

Consider "no outward signs"... Personal attacks, and inappropriate aggression in trying to get a thread reinstated hurt - it was the final straw.

As for your other question about who's going to look into the PP in the future? Why, me of course.

Now, can we move forward please...

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:48

No time like the present.

Izzie · Post by **Izzie** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:55

Can I join in here by saying if you don't like the PP then don't make any posts or read it.Or is that to simple.

Sorry don't see what all the fuss is about,but I am sure you will all jump in at the chance to tell me

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 14 Aug 2007, 15:57

wangi wrote:
As for your other question about who's going to look into the PP in the future? Why, me of course.

Now, can we move forward please...

So now you want o include us?

The message coming from the body of the kirk here on TP is ditch the Play Pen. So either we are a key part of the site or we aren't, which one is it?

Post by **wangi** » 14 Aug 2007, 16:07

Porty wrote:The message coming from the body of the kirk here on TP is ditch the Play Pen. So either we are a key part of the site or we aren't, which one is it?

I am sick to death of the Play Pen and the numbers thread. I am not going to change anything regarding it just now. If the Play Pen is removed then the threads in it go too.

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 14 Aug 2007, 16:07

Izzie wrote:Can I join in here by saying if you don't like the PP then don't make any posts or read it.Or is that to simple.

Sorry don't see what all the fuss is about,but I am sure you will all jump in at the chance to tell me

I agree with you Izzie that folks should just read the threads/forums they want to and avoid those that they aren't interested in but this issue of the play pen forum is not about that. So, it's not that simple.

It's the perceived need for a further segregation of the less serious topics that g&tt is meant to house into yet another forum that's the problem here.