Thanks (all about the Play Pen forum and the numbers thread)

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 03 Aug 2007, 14:54

Thanks to whoever came up with the Playpen

A neat and effective way to diffuse a difficult situation (....but not many people know that.)

ali · Post by **ali** » 03 Aug 2007, 15:27

Yeah thanks, peace and reconciliation and all that.................but surely it all could've been avoided with a little bit of dialogue and consultation.
You have to let people know what your intentions are and how you intend to go about it. ("post-pumping" was a new concept to me and several others).
Anyway, its nice to be back.

Nelson Hatstand · Post by **Nelson Hatstand** » 03 Aug 2007, 15:33

ali wrote:("post-pumping" was a new concept to me and several others).

Since then though he's been pumping his post quite a bit.

It's lovely to be back.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 03 Aug 2007, 15:52

Totally agree with the elder statesmen above

The Play Pen is a truly superlative idea (whoever thought of it) and I love that the post count has gone

Good result for all and I am glad to be back... although it was very cosy and welcoming over at the bolt-hole

We are no longer revolting

SoupDragon · Post by **SoupDragon** » 03 Aug 2007, 16:10

Thanks for the playpen.
Wonder who's going to be the first to throw their toys out?

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 03 Aug 2007, 16:28

SoupDragon wrote:Thanks for the playpen.
Wonder who's going to be the first to throw their toys out?

Me. I don't like it. There should be no need for it and I really can't see myself hopping in and out of the gossip forum and this one. Does this mean that the threads in GTT with jokes, links to games etc should now be moved?

I find the whole idea of it a bit of an insult really and kind of side-stepping the issue as I saw it. Why is it only visible once you've logged on? Are we some sort of embarrassment to be hidden away in a wee corner? It'll not take long before someone objects to something having been posted in GTT and moves it to playpen and then another stooshie breaks out.

I seem to be in a minority - the only one, probably -though so I'm glad that the majority are happy with it and peace is restored.

Nelson Hatstand · Post by **Nelson Hatstand** » 03 Aug 2007, 17:20

ecm wrote: I seem to be in a minority - the only one, probably -though so I'm glad that the majority are happy with it and peace is restored.

No, I agree with you, having thought about it. I think the play pen sucks.

I don't see why everything can't be on G&TT - if Portobello Matters is supposed to be the serious thread, then what's G&TT there for then?

And who decides if something's not suitable for G&TT? Does it then get demoted to the play pen? And what if we don't agree?

I mean, I can't see any difference between the counting thread and the 'what are you listening to' thread, so why doesn't that get moved to the play pen too?

And wtf has my 'mugs of death' thread got to do with anything? I posted it on G&TT because I didn't want it confined to the play pen, but does it have any more or any less right to be on g&tt than the 'boring' thread for example. No, it doesn't, to answer my own question.

And if the more off-the-wall stuff is confined to the play pen, and can't be seen by people who aren't already members, then is a weakened, more boring G&TT going to attract new people? Less likely. The 'listening' thread was one of the reasons I started joining in, but if it had been confined to a thread I couldn't have seen because I wasn't already registered, then I might not have bothered.

I really do like the idea of us not having post numbers or 'rankings' for the reason that new people ain't put off by the seeming cliquey-ness of those with the higher post counts, ie the regular posters.

Not that I'm desperate for new online buddies or anything, but this site is supposed to be an inclusive site for the people of portobello, be they posters or lurkers. Taking away post counts is a step towards this. The play pen is a step back.

Post by **wangi** » 03 Aug 2007, 17:30

Nelson Hatstand wrote: And if the more off-the-wall stuff is confined to the play pen, and can't be seen by people who aren't already members, then is a weakened, more boring G&TT going to attract new people? Less likely. The 'listening' thread was one of the reasons I started joining in, but if it had been confined to a thread I couldn't have seen because I wasn't already registered, then I might not have bothered.

I think you might have that backward. Having the "Play Pen" (PP) hidden probably makes the forum as a whole more accessible to would-be users. They are not immediately faced with a mass of posts by an "in crowd", the visible content is a bit more coherent!

One thing to remember is there's a small vocal minority on this forum, the majority of people simply read and occasionally post... Lets make it easier for them to read interesting things

There's nothing that needs archived in the PP, and nothing of would-be external interest so there's no real reason to make it visible to anyone other than registered users.

Sure, at some point somebody will post on G&TT and it'll be moved by a mod/admin to PP - just as that already happens with G&TT and the Portobello Matters forum.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 03 Aug 2007, 17:44

wangi wrote:Sure, at some point somebody will post on G&TT and it'll be moved by a mod/admin to PP

Or vice versa as also happens with PM stuff!

In my understanding of PP, it is for the parlour games rather than conversation/discussions. Obviously, posts in the Listening or Drinking threads are often just "notings", but they have the potential to either provoke a question or provide someone with information. Even if they don't post, they may go off and try a record or a drink that someone mentions...

ali · Post by **ali** » 03 Aug 2007, 17:50

ecm wrote:
SoupDragon wrote:Thanks for the playpen.
Wonder who's going to be the first to throw their toys out?
Me. I don't like it. There should be no need for it and I really can't see myself hopping in and out of the gossip forum and this one. Does this mean that the threads in GTT with jokes, links to games etc should now be moved?

I find the whole idea of it a bit of an insult really and kind of side-stepping the issue as I saw it. Why is it only visible once you've logged on? Are we some sort of embarrassment to be hidden away in a wee corner? It'll not take long before someone objects to something having been posted in GTT and moves it to playpen and then another stooshie breaks out.

I seem to be in a minority - the only one, probably -though so I'm glad that the majority are happy with it and peace is restored.

I sort of agree - in fact I did point out to someone, somewhere else that I think that the connotations of "Play Pen" were that we were kids who needed to be shunted out of the way so that we didn't embarrass anyone - however we can have that particular argument/discussion here now cant we?

The mods have shown that they are amenable to persuasion, however un-orthodox a form that had to take in this particular situation, and we should recognise that.

Now we can maybe lobby for the outside world to be exposed to the full intelligent, boring, stupid, wise, annoying, funny and profound spectrum of the views of the people who hang out around here without a Mod appearing from nowhere to give us the wet-hanky treatment before locking us away in the Play Pen.

Nelson Hatstand · Post by **Nelson Hatstand** » 03 Aug 2007, 17:50

wangi wrote:
Nelson Hatstand wrote: And if the more off-the-wall stuff is confined to the play pen, and can't be seen by people who aren't already members, then is a weakened, more boring G&TT going to attract new people? Less likely. The 'listening' thread was one of the reasons I started joining in, but if it had been confined to a thread I couldn't have seen because I wasn't already registered, then I might not have bothered.
I think you might have that backward. Having the "Play Pen" (PP) hidden probably makes the forum as a whole more accessible to would-be users. They are not immediately faced with a mass of posts by an "in crowd", the visible content is a bit more coherent!

One thing to remember is there's a small vocal minority on this forum, the majority of people simply read and occasionally post... Lets make it easier for them to read interesting things

There's nothing that needs archived in the PP, and nothing of would-be external interest so there's no real reason to make it visible to anyone other than registered users.

Sure, at some point somebody will post on G&TT and it'll be moved by a mod/admin to PP - just as that already happens with G&TT and the Portobello Matters forum.

But Wangi, there is a clear definition between Portobello Matters and G&TT.

The difference between the play pen and G&TT is much less definable. I'm not sure how you can make a judgement on what is interesting and what is not - it's all subjective. For example, I think that the 'Listening' thread is interesting, but I find the 'Photography' thread quite boring. And I am 100% sure your opinion is different. But my clever solution to boring (to me) threads is: I don't bother reading them.

I don't think people need your help in deciding what may or may not be interesting for them.

Having said that, I would love to be on the committee that decides. Just pm me and I'll be there like a shot.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:02

I think we should get away from the discussion of what is "boring". It is perhaps unfortunate that the word was used in the first place as one of the reasons for deleting the counting thread.

It's only one thread in PP that makes reference to that, the rest are, as I've said, parlour games.

OK, there is bound to be a blurry line with some topics; the same happens in PM at times when a PM topic "deteriorates" into jokey posts that are slightly off topic. I hope that no-one claims that any categorisation is perfect. It doesn't need to be on here, surely??

ali · Post by **ali** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:12

Poppy wrote:I think we should get away from the discussion of what is "boring". It is perhaps unfortunate that the word was used in the first place as one of the reasons for deleting the counting thread.

It's only one thread in PP that makes reference to that, the rest are, as I've said, parlour games.

OK, there is bound to be a blurry line with some topics; the same happens in PM at times when a PM topic "deteriorates" into jokey posts that are slightly off topic. I hope that no-one claims that any categorisation is perfect. It doesn't need to be on here, surely??

Its also unfortunate that the fact that it was going to be deleted wasn't discussed beforehand.
Marya seems to have had a bee in her bonnet but didn't warn the bee before she swatted it. Fair enough when a real bee is nesting in yer hat but not good when dealing with a thread which I too initially groaned at but was learning to enjoy - I particularly enjoyed aileenandwhatsisname's post - didn't understand a word of that wikipedia link but enjoyed trying to....................

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:13

ali wrote:a little bit of dialogue and consultation.

I came back to our "hide-out" and all you buggers had buggered off and left me. There didn't seem to be a great deal of consultation or deliberation before you all decided to return here.
Now it seems some of you feel as I do about the play pen idea.

So, where does that leave us now? I'm going back to stick on a kettle. Who wants a cup?

ali · Post by **ali** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:20

Nelson Hatstand wrote:I find the 'Photography' thread quite boring.

Meeeoowwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!

ali · Post by **ali** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:25

ecm wrote:
ali wrote:a little bit of dialogue and consultation.
I came back to our "hide-out" and all you buggers had buggered off and left me. There didn't seem to be a great deal of consultation or deliberation before you all decided to return here.
Now it seems some of you feel as I do about the play pen idea.

So, where does that leave us now? I'm going back to stick on a kettle. Who wants a cup?

green tea for me please........and a cherry bakewell if you have one.

Anyway as I was saying - here is where we are now and we should just talk it out and see how it pans out. (I got to the hide-out about 8 mins after Play Pen appeared and people were back here already)

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:30

ali wrote:
I got to the hide-out about 8 mins after Play Pen appeared and people were back here already

What a fickle bunch. Lured away so easily by the shiny play pen.

ali · Post by **ali** » 03 Aug 2007, 18:33

ecm wrote:
ali wrote:
I got to the hide-out about 8 mins after Play Pen appeared and people were back here already
What a fickle bunch. Lured away so easily by the shiny play pen.

I agree totally................no cherry bakewells huh?

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 04 Aug 2007, 00:02

I don't altogether see the point of the Play Pen, or the distinction between the content of posts on there and posts on G&TT but then again I didn't understand the rationale of the counting thread being deleted or the whole post pumping conspiracy.

I'm sure this will all be ironed out as we go along...because let's face it we're a vociferous bunch of posters

I was happy to jump back quickly because an effort was being made to bridge the divide and that was enough for me. This is not the f'n United Nations

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 04 Aug 2007, 00:06

ali wrote:Yeah thanks, peace and reconciliation and all that.................but surely it all could've been avoided with a little bit of dialogue and consultation.
You have to let people know what your intentions are and how you intend to go about it. ("post-pumping" was a new concept to me and several others).
Anyway, its nice to be back.

I agree.

Never heard of Post-pumping before though

Definitely a bit of dialogue and consultation was needed.

It was very nice to come back on and have 26 posts to trawl through.

Don't like the playpen.

And deleting the number of posts people have was my idea!

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 04 Aug 2007, 10:54

As I indicated in the first post on this thread, I like the concept of the Play Pen, but I agree with the comments about opening it up to the public at large: why should only the registered privileged few have all the fun?

I also share the concern about the possibility of it being used as a place to shunt 'embarrassing' material to keep it out of the public view.

One of the most disturbing aspects of what happened this week was the attempt to suppress dissent. Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it. Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser. Perhaps that was the idea.

I accept Wangi's point that the majority of people who use the site are content to browse, dip in and leave, but that does not mean that the 'vocal minority' should be treated with disdain by the moderators. All that we were trying to do was to get a cogent, reasoned argument as to why the Councting Thread was deleted in the first place. We are still waiting.

Dissent is healthy for any democratic organisation and its suppression alienates those who are subjected to it and demeans those who apply it.

I'm all for moderation...... but not at the expense of free speech.

mr magnolia · Post by **mr magnolia** » 04 Aug 2007, 12:23

Hmm

I seem to have missed the great divide. Never mind, I'm sure it was fun, really. Should I be concerned for my well being?

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 12:32

rathbone wrote:One of the most disturbing aspects of what happened this week was the attempt to suppress dissent. Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it. Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser. Perhaps that was the idea.

No, this thread was never deleted - it was on G&TT for the duration. What I had big big problems with was a new thread (often aggressive and containing personal attacks) being created every five minutes and the whole forum index being overrun...

Remember too that this forum is intended to be about, and for, Portobello. It's not here to see if folk can count ad nauseum!

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 04 Aug 2007, 18:52

wangi wrote:
rathbone wrote:Remember too that this forum is intended to be about, and for, Portobello. It's not here to see if folk can count ad nauseum!

I think it's a great advert for Portobello! It shows people outside our village that the standard of education herein is second to none. We can count, and we can count up to really high numbers. It says a lot about local schools. I think we should start a spelling thread next.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 19:09

wangi wrote:
rathbone wrote:One of the most disturbing aspects of what happened this week was the attempt to suppress dissent. Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it. Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser. Perhaps that was the idea.
No, this thread was never deleted - it was on G&TT for the duration. What I had big big problems with was a new thread (often aggressive and containing personal attacks) being created every five minutes and the whole forum index being overrun...

Remember too that this forum is intended to be about, and for, Portobello. It's not here to see if folk can count ad nauseum!

Liar.

You removed any and all references to the strike, for the duration of the strike - irrespective of their content.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 19:21

Dadaist wrote: Liar.

You removed any and all references to the strike, for the duration of the strike - irrespective of their content.

Matt, it's a shame you still want to stick the knife in and don't want to move on. It's even more of a shame you do not trust me. I assure you that http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?t=3827 was visible through out. The other threads were deleted because they were duplicate (how many threads do you need to create to say "I'm on a strike" - try not posting anything!) or personal attacks.

You might not have noticed that thread, being all het up organising your strike and posting the multiple others... This is a forum, not a campaign for racial equality - get some perspective. Worth recognising the time a number of people devote to this site.

A thread of incrementing numbers, give me a break.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 21:16

wangi, Rathbone is spot on - you suppressed any and all mention of the strike for its entire duration.

We all saw it happen.

If you're denying doing that, you're a liar.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 21:47

I have said twice already what was not deleted, what was, and why. A single thread about the deletion of the "counting" thread remained on the forum through out. It's not my problem you, and others, missed it because you were all worked up about your little "strike" - it was there.

I really do not appreciate being called a liar. In fact, it really pisses me off. That's a very nice "thanks". Can I also remind you of posting guideline #7.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:07

wangi wrote:I have said twice already what was not deleted, what was, and why.

No you haven't. It's untrue of you to say this. You have said why some of what was deleted was deleted because, in your opinion, it replicated what was already on the thread you link to. You've said why some posting you judged to be personal attacks or aggressive was deleted. But you haven't said why every single mention of the strike was deleted.

wangi wrote:A single thread about the deletion of the "counting" thread remained on the forum through out. It's not my problem you, and others, missed it

No we didn't. It's untrue of you to say we missed it.

wangi wrote:the whole forum index being overrun

No it wasn't. It's untrue of you to say this. Once you had made it clear you were going to suppress any mention of the strike on a new thread, I changed the title of the thread about the counting thread to read that we were on strike.

The forum index contains circa 22 topic headers. In order to "overrun" it I'd have to nudge out the topics not authored by me and post a pile of threads all on one topic. I did not do this.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:13

rathbone wrote:
One of the most disturbing aspects of what happened this week was the attempt to suppress dissent. Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it. Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser. Perhaps that was the idea.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:18

wangi wrote: I really do not appreciate being called a liar. In fact, it really pisses me off. That's a very nice "thanks". Can I also remind you of posting guideline #7.

In that case don't lie about how you suppressed any and all mention of the strike when it was on.

There may well be a posting guideline #7 - there isn't one which bans what you did when the strike was on, though.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:18

Matt, I am not getting into point for point. Rathbone said "Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it" - as I have for three times now said this is not true, one thread explicitly about the deletion of the counting thread remained through out. As for postal strike??

He also said "Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser" - I think we both know your wide scale PMing to forum members makes this unrealistic.

Regardless, I've not told a lie... So I would very much appreciate an apology.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:27

wangi wrote:Matt, I am not getting into point for point.

Fine by me - don't then.

Rathbone said "Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it" - as I have for three times now said this is not true, one thread explicitly about the deletion of the counting thread remained through out. As for postal strike??

By that Rathbone means the strike we went on.

He also said "Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser" - I think we both know your wide scale PMing to forum members makes this unrealistic.

Exactly right - forum members. I think we both know your wide-scale jackbooting of any and all references to the strike makes Rathbone's point realistic from the standpoint of anyone who browsed the forum that wasn't among the 12-odd people I PMd.

Regardless, I've not told a lie... So I would very much appreciate an apology.

In my opinion you have. You, and we, know that you - on multiple occasions - suppressed any and all reference to there being a strike.

If you'll stop lying about your strike suppression I'll stop calling you one.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:32

Dadaist wrote:
Regardless, I've not told a lie... So I would very much appreciate an apology.
In my opinion you have. You, and we, know that you - on multiple occasions - suppressed any and all reference to there being a strike.

And I have said multiple times that I did delete the other threads regarding the deletion of the counting thread (and the come-again reborn counting threads). I explicitly left a single thread about the issue - I did not remove all discussion of it.

Are you aware how lame all this is?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:34

wangi wrote:
Dadaist wrote:
Regardless, I've not told a lie... So I would very much appreciate an apology.
In my opinion you have. You, and we, know that you - on multiple occasions - suppressed any and all reference to there being a strike.
And I have said multiple times that I did delete the other threads regarding the deletion of the counting thread (and the come-again reborn counting threads). I explicitly left a single thread about the issue - I did not remove all discussion of it.

Are you aware how lame all this is?

And you suppressed any and all mention of there being a strike. You did remove all discussion of that - you didn't leave a single thread about it.

Suppressing any and all mention of the strike - yes, that was lame of you.