POL versus Royal Bank Of Scotland

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 14:35

I'm very late to this whole decision to plaster our pages with corporate logos in exchange for lucre.

What has happened thus far is that Bob PM'd me when I expressed utter contempt for the Bankers and their blood money and I indicated :

a) my own opinion is to burn the cheque as it is dirty money and we are prostituting ourselves to cynical moneylenders

b) the decision to take on sponsorship like this should be collective - ie all forum members

c) I recognise that I've not done anything to promote POL, whereas Bob has sweated over the site

d) there are other ways to fundraise - member donations and fundraisers being but two

I'm happy to be wrong on this one. Whaddyall think?

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 14:58

RBOS are a conglomerate,a corporation and offer services that are offered by at least 6 local, long established businesse. Most if not all of whom have paid to join the business directory.

Speaking for myself and PoP, we are no different from Findlay's or John Williamson.

Would the PCATS campaign, councillors, Bob or any other Moderator have sanctioned Tesco as the site sponsor?

ali · Post by **ali** » 01 Sep 2005, 15:59

Porty wrote:RBOS are a conglomerate,a corporation and offer services that are offered by at least 6 local, long established businesse. Most if not all of whom have paid to join the business directory.

Speaking for myself and PoP, we are no different from Findlay's or John Williamson.

Would the PCATS campaign, councillors, Bob or any other Moderator have sanctioned Tesco as the site sponsor?

Excellent point. If we'd accepted sponsorship from Banana Republic or Sizzlers fair enough but a global corporate giant with its fingers in all sorts of pies is opening up a can of worms, as it were (:?)

I think the fundamental point here is that, not for the first time, the "ownership" of the forum and who makes the decisions around here is up for debate. Lets get it sorted!!

Post by **wangi** » 01 Sep 2005, 16:04

ali wrote:"ownership" of the forum and who makes the decisions around here is up for debate

Worth remembering that Portobello Online is more than just this forum.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 16:21

wangi wrote:
ali wrote:"ownership" of the forum and who makes the decisions around here is up for debate
Worth remembering that Portobello Online is more than just this forum.

Yes, fair point there. But it's a big part of the site and I would argue for a debate and vote to take place here.

Dakota · Post by **Dakota** » 01 Sep 2005, 16:40

Dadaist wrote:
d) there are other ways to fundraise - member donations and fundraisers being but two

Member donations seem an unlikely way to raise funds. But then what does POL need funds for? Hosting costs are minimal, software can all be got open-source, and work is all done on a voluntary basis.

The question isn't rhetorical, BTW. Why is the money needed?

PS: I don't want to question the goodwill of the bank OR the good intentions of the Mods. I'm genuinely curious.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 16:42

Porty wrote:RBOS are a conglomerate,a corporation and offer services that are offered by at least 6 local, long established businesse. Most if not all of whom have paid to join the business directory.

Speaking for myself and PoP, we are no different from Findlay's or John Williamson.

Would the PCATS campaign, councillors, Bob or any other Moderator have sanctioned Tesco as the site sponsor?

Intelligent point.

I put Tesco in the same bag as RBOS. And it's a nice thought to put youse boys (and girls) at MPeople in the same bag as Findlays and Williamson.

I briefly worked for RBOS at the Gyle, and had the ill fortune to read their internal notes on sponsorship, why it was given and what they expected in return. Any RBOS staff can access this information on their intranet.

I remember being genuinely shocked at how cold the tone it was written in was, let alone the content.

Post by **wangi** » 01 Sep 2005, 16:43

Are those taking part in a vote going to chip in some cash too?

(by the way, just thought I'd play Devil's Advocate)

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 16:46

Dakota wrote:
Dadaist wrote:
d) there are other ways to fundraise - member donations and fundraisers being but two

Member donations seem an unlikely way to raise funds. But then what does POL need funds for? Hosting costs are minimal, software can all be got open-source, and work is all done on a voluntary basis.

The question isn't rhetorical, BTW. Why is the money needed?

PS: I don't want to question the goodwill of the bank OR the good intentions of the Mods. I'm genuinely curious.

I think we need to let Bob and the other Mods who have worked hard at all this have their say. As far as I understand, the money will be used to promote the site.

You may think member donations are an unlikely way to raise funds, but you'd be surprised what you can do with a Paypal button and some exclusive offerings to members.

And anyway, you can do plenty other stuff like parties and car boot sales.

Put the fun into fundraising.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 01 Sep 2005, 18:08

Like Dakota, I'm not entirely sure why the forum needs sponsorship money....Bob

However bearing in mind that the Forum does not to the best of my knowledge have a mission statement and is not allied to any polictical party, green or otherwise, if sponsorship is required, RBS money is as good as anybody's. I cannot equate displaying their logo to prostitutiion

As far as running the forum is concerned, there is no way I want a say in the decision making...it has to be done by the small but capable group of volunteers who put themselves forward. If every decision was opened up for the usual POL "war and peace" debate, we would never decide anything

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 18:24

foxy wrote:If every decision was opened up for the usual POL "war and peace" debate, we would never decide anything

...unless you put stuff to a vote after debating for a set time period. If you don't want to vote, fine. Maybe one day something will come up that you *do* want to have a say in. And this, er, discussion forum is the perfect forum for that discussion.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 19:45

Let's debate this seriously and here are some points for consideration.

Can we have a poll on whether we would take Tesco's money? And if need be the RBOS money.

Should we advertise the Tesco logo on the welcome page to guage community reaction?

Was site sponsorship offered to everyone or was there a private deal done by someone?

Many portobello businesses dislike RBOS same goes for BOS and TSB. Many of these businesses have paid to be in the directory, would they have done so if they had known RBOS would be overall sponsors?

What do we need money for and by that lets have a detailed plan on what it is going to be used for?

Does the business directory generate money annualy?

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 01 Sep 2005, 19:53

The pursuit of sponsorship of the POL website was not a decision taken by an individual but rather by a group of volunteers (all Forum members incidentally) whose common goal was to raise funds to help maintain and promote the website - not just the Forum.

Any Forum member could have volunteered to help. We met regularly on Sat mornings. I personally know how much precious freetime and legwork it takes trudging around local businesses looking for cash. We didn't do it for fun but because we all wanted to benefit the website.

Corporate sponsorship offers a secure source of funding. The RBS was not the only company approached, but it was the only one who agreed to sponsor POL. They are an Edinburgh based company and look favourably on local requests.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 19:56

All fair enough Marya and canott argue with the role of the fundraisers.

Would we take Tesco's money?

Was the sponsorship offered to everyone?

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 01 Sep 2005, 19:59

Porty wrote:
Was the sponsorship offered to everyone?

How can you offer it to everyone? Was it offered to MPeople? and would you have said yes?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 20:01

Marya wrote: Corporate sponsorship offers a secure source of funding.

Prison offers a secure source of food and clothing.

Marya wrote:The RBS was not the only company approached, but it was the only one who agreed to sponsor POL.

The RBS offers the "least ethical" pension scheme in the UK. Remove any morality from this debate and I guess we should be comfortable accepting sponsorship from the Yakuza. They weren't the only crime syndicate approached, but they were the only ones who agreed to sponsor POL.

Marya wrote:They are an Edinburgh based company and look favourably on local requests.

It's certainly true that some of their cash comes home. But it has been on holiday in some bleak locations.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 01 Sep 2005, 20:04

Porty wrote:All fair enough Marya and canott argue with the role of the fundraisers.

Would we take Tesco's money?

dccairns was one of our merry band so what do you reckon?

Was the sponsorship offered to everyone?

We approached larger companies who had a reputation for sponsoring.
Pity you didn't come along to the Sat morning meets Porty you could have helped draw up the list.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 20:09

By everyone I meant everyone in the business directory.

Mpeople would most definetly would have considered any proposal that was made to assess potential value for money. I am not aware of what a sponsor gets in return and we were never approached in a commercial manner. (it got a mention at the BBBQ but by that time the RBOS deal was done)

Please don't get me wrong; if I had been a fundraiser and I saw an opportunity to gain a big sponsor I would pursue it.

However, I cannot accept that just because Tesco said they would sponsor POL it would be acceptable to the Portobello community. And the fact that they are not an Edinburg company would not have been the main issue.

bellybabe · Post by **bellybabe** » 01 Sep 2005, 20:52

In terms of ethics, how do you satisfy everyone on POL? Should we ethically scrutinise the people who have agreed to pay money to the business directory for advertising? I haven't checked the LBD recently, but thinking of local businesses, that could rule out all pubs and restaurants (do we think it's ethical to encourage alcohol abuse? What if you have religious sensitivities which state alcohol is evil? It could be an ethically sensitive issue since, for example, Islam bans intoxicants). MPeople might be considered unethical by people who believe in the right to own property at a price one can afford, rather than paying huge loans for the privelege. The very category of "butcher" might be unethical for some people... Are all the clothes in the local boutiques fairly traded? Is it ethical to buy fish when there's a crisis in terms of over-fishing? Do the local greengrocers sell Chiquita bananas?

Where would we draw the line?

FYI, I was uneasy with the RBS deal. I would never dream of opening an account with them. And I am not part of the fundraising team; I was offered the opportunity to join, as was every one of us here, and to have my say; I chose not to. But I think using RBS' unethical policies as a reason not to trade with them, when we don't apply the same standards to the rest of Portobello, is a bit hypocritical. We'll take some unethical money but not others? We don't mind people using computers/connections/software/energy from unethical companies to use POL but we can't take sponsorship?

I would rather not take RBS' money. But then I would rather live in a peaceful, ethical, sustainable world where everyone is equal and respected. Unfortunately I don't.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 01 Sep 2005, 20:58

Those members who are concerned by the unethical trading practices of RBS may be comforted to know that by the time they read this thread they may well decide to tear up the cheque.

For those of us who have worked hard to secure this sponsorship deal, that would be a great shame because no other local company we have approached has shown an interest. Nevertheless, RBS does not have exclusivity and we are happy to talk to other would-be sponsors. If any member is aware of local, ethically-sound companies who might be interested please let us know.

Why do we need money? We don't. We could continue as we have done in the past in a low-key kind of way, but we would like to promote the site and continue to improve it in every way we can. The local business directory has already raised over Â£1000 and that money has already bought the Town Hall banner, the digital voice recorder, the window stickers, more reliable hosting and a huge POL display board which will be unveiled at the Festival of Learning. We didn't hold a poll over how we spent that money. The people who had a say in how it was spent were the people who helped to raise the money and open accounts are published on a forum to which these people have access.

Corporate sponsorship gives us the opportunity to do more. Next on the shopping list is a 3G card and a data projector so that we can demo Portobello Online to target audiences.

If that means we have sold our soul to Mammon then so be it, but let's try to keep things in perspective. Our business cards were printed for free by Standard Life through their community fund. Is that right-on enough for everyone? Where do you want to stop? The fact is that we are going to put their money to good use.

If a wealthy benefactor would like to match what RBS are offering, on an annual basis, then we will tell them to forget it but don't expect any say in how the money is spent, because RBS don't have any. Neither will they have any veto on the content of the website, as this discussion amply demonstrates.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 21:14

The last thing I want is for this debate to form around M People. Yes, I could have gone to fundraising meetings and would thereby got the inside track. What about our competitors? Where would that have left them?

This is not a question of ethics more of double standards. One of the key thrusts of the PCATS campaign was the threat, real or imagined to the livelihod of local traders and business owners of which I am one. Just like Joe Findlay just like John Williamson and just like the family that own Woodwares. If POL would not take Tesco or B&Q money on the basis that these companies are a threat to local business then maybe they should not take RBOS money on the same grounds.

BB, I cannot let this statement go without drawing attention to a rare display of ignorance from your good self:

Bellybabe wrote: MPeople might be considered unethical by people who believe in the right to own property at a price one can afford, rather than paying huge loans for the privelege.

Mpeople do not buy or sell properties and have no influence on the price of property or on the price of the money that buys that property. You are talking out of your bahookey.

Let me tell you that an unsuspecting and financially naive Portobello resident should wander into the RBOS and arrange a mortgage. At very best they would find themselves paying 20% more than they need to. Mpeople and the other independent brokers in portobello act for their clients not themselves. RBOS sell what they have in their product range and for the last 2 years or so the products have been very much skewed in favour of the Bank.

Poppy · Post by **Poppy** » 01 Sep 2005, 21:34

these companies are a threat to local business then maybe they should not take RBOS money on the same grounds.

But RBoS were in Portobello a 100 years or so BEFORE the mortgage brokers................so maybe they are a threat to RBoS!!!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 21:55

Yes it is undoubtedly pertinent that RBOS are here already and have been for a long time, it differentiates them from Tesco et al, at least in that regard.

RBOS are not competing on the same basis and its not just a question of size. They are not independent, they do not offer value for money,(if they did offer value for money then an independent broker,like Mpeople, would recommend them,) they cannot pick from the whole marketplace, their financial products are riddled with tricky clauses (as are most banks etc) and POL as a community forum are prepared to give them our endorsement for Â£500.

I would prefer the community got behind the independent traders who offer a genuine advice and recommendation service. Whether that independent guy is Mpeople or one of the other firms on our high street.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 01 Sep 2005, 22:13

Read the sponsor message. We aren't endorsing anyone - they are endorsing us. If you think that getting your logo on the front page is worth Â£500, then we would be more than happy to take your money.

For the record, I would guess that many local traders have business accounts with RBS.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 22:19

Bob Jefferson wrote: Read the sponsor message. We aren't endorsing anyone - they are endorsing us.

They are sponsoring us we are endorsing them.

Bob Jefferson wrote:For the record, I would guess that many local traders have business accounts with RBS.

Good guess.

Would you have taken Tesco's or B&Q's money?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 22:27

Bob, will you submit this decision to a forum poll?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 01 Sep 2005, 22:29

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 22:30

Bob Jefferson wrote:No.

Has the Poll started already?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 01 Sep 2005, 22:42

Cripes. Amazing what you can find on the internet. We are indeed among the rich and famous now. Our Â£500 actually *is* blood money. Guess who had an account at Coutts when it was owned by RBS?

Augusto Pinochet

Here is a voluminous page which monitors the grubby monster that is RBS :

http://www.innercitypress.org/rbs.html

Oh well. We're in bed with Fred "The Shred" Goodwin (RBS chief exec).

Sad, bad day.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 01 Sep 2005, 23:42

Bob Jefferson wrote: If you think that getting your logo on the front page is worth Â£500, then we would be more than happy to take your money.

Would the same apply for Tesco?

Post by **wangi** » 01 Sep 2005, 23:57

Porty wrote:Would the same apply for Tesco?

Every little helps.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 02 Sep 2005, 00:09

Haha!! I've used that a number of times.

I wonder if I'm going to get an answer to the "Tesco Question" from any of the mods? Even Dada isn't prepared to say one way or another if he would have taken their cash?

Although, he is pretty clear about not taking RBOS cash, BB appears to be the same. To paraphrase Meatloaf; 2 out of 4 aint bad.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 02 Sep 2005, 06:35

Porty wrote:Haha!! I've used that a number of times.

I wonder if I'm going to get an answer to the "Tesco Question" from any of the mods? Even Dada isn't prepared to say one way or another if he would have taken their cash?

Although, he is pretty clear about not taking RBOS cash, BB appears to be the same. To paraphrase Meatloaf; 2 out of 4 aint bad.

Oh sorry Porty - I'd completely overlooked that one.

I swear unequivocally that I would not have taken their cash, so help me God.

Good enough?

Dakota · Post by **Dakota** » 02 Sep 2005, 06:49

foxy wrote:
As far as running the forum is concerned, there is no way I want a say in the decision making...it has to be done by the small but capable group of volunteers who put themselves forward.

Too true! Thank you Mods - and thank you to the whole fundraising team. I hope this thread is taken as healthy debate, rather than personal attacks. For the record, I bank with RBS and have recommended them to friends.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 02 Sep 2005, 08:24

Dadaist wrote:
Porty wrote:Haha!! I've used that a number of times.

I wonder if I'm going to get an answer to the "Tesco Question" from any of the mods? Even Dada isn't prepared to say one way or another if he would have taken their cash?

Although, he is pretty clear about not taking RBOS cash, BB appears to be the same. To paraphrase Meatloaf; 2 out of 4 aint bad.
Oh sorry Porty - I'd completely overlooked that one.

I swear unequivocally that I would not have taken their cash, so help me God.

Good enough?

Perfect.

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