Carnival For Full Enjoyment (anarchist demo)

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Jul 2005, 14:01

Large numbers of organised troublemakers are occupying Princes St right now......and only a small number of anarchists to keep an eye on them!!!

Photos to follow.....

Post by **wangi** » 04 Jul 2005, 14:13

You were there too then... Likewise photos to follow.

Police were loosing the plot a bit - some lighthearted and smiling, others scowling at the police that were smiling. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it really kicks off.

My head came a bit close to a truncheon outside Bute House...

Post by **wangi** » 04 Jul 2005, 15:28

Photos:

http://www.pbase.com/wangi/g8_carnival_ ... _enjoyment

And the graffit along Rose Street (taken Thursday):

http://www.pbase.com/wangi/g8

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:39

edit -> fixed link to photos

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:45

ifstar · Post by **ifstar** » 04 Jul 2005, 20:49

Or for some alternative pics visit the BBC's website.

Pic 11 is quite interesting, as the police are tending to an injured person a bin is thrown at them.

Ned Ludd · Post by **Ned Ludd** » 04 Jul 2005, 21:21

The BBCs 'alternative' pics seem to be ever-so-slightly more balanced than those previously posted.

My office overlooks Waverley Bridge and I had a grandstand view of much of today's events. The Police deserve praise for the way they handled things. They didn't overreact in the face of severe provocation, and concentrated on keeping the peace rather than trying to arrest the ringleaders. But hopefully they know who and where the ringleaders are, and will prise them from their tents tonight when no-one is looking.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Jul 2005, 21:22

ifstar wrote:Or for some alternative pics visit the BBC's website.

Pic 11 is quite interesting, as the police are tending to an injured person a bin is thrown at them.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You weren't watching News 24 then (where they showed the footage of that arrest) or even looking at that photo correctly (where you can see that Dibble has the subject held down on his front whilst they apply shackles)

Here is the photo you refer to :

Funny way of attending to somebody, sitting on them and putting their hands behind their back.

People were injured today, which is a fact. Violence was carried out by both sides, which is also a fact. You and I probably have very different opinions about the causes, reasons and blame for that violence, which I will debate endlessly with you if you like. Just do me a favour and get your facts right, ok?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Jul 2005, 21:30

Ned Ludd wrote:The BBCs 'alternative' pics seem to be ever-so-slightly more balanced than those previously posted.

My office overlooks Waverley Bridge and I had a grandstand view of much of today's events. The Police deserve praise for the way they handled things. They didn't overreact in the face of severe provocation, and concentrated on keeping the peace rather than trying to arrest the ringleaders. But hopefully they know who and where the ringleaders are, and will prise them from their tents tonight when no-one is looking.

Yes, let's have some late night arrests. After all, if we are running a dirty war in Iraq where torture has become routine, we may as well be consistent, eh?

Provocation, yes. Overreaction, yes. Oh sorry, you meant us ??? Silly me, I thought you meant the law.

Ned Ludd · Post by **Ned Ludd** » 04 Jul 2005, 21:38

The Police are just ordinary people like you and me. Their job is to make us all feel a little safer - or maybe you wouldn't call them if you were beaten up or burgled?

The so-called protesters came here to fight - if it wasn't G8 it would be animal rights or football hooliganism. They deserve what they get.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Jul 2005, 21:55

Hmmm, actually being there and not being bothered by the politics of those protesting I came away with the overwhelming belief that (some of!) the police were being rather heavy handed, while the vast majority of protesters were just actiing like the costumes they were wearing.

Ned Ludd · Post by **Ned Ludd** » 04 Jul 2005, 22:04

wangi wrote: I came away with the overwhelming belief that (some of!) the police were being rather heavy handed, while the vast majority of protesters were just actiing like the costumes they were wearing.

Does that translate as 'the vast majority of the Police were reasonable while (some of) the protestors were looking for a fight'? My point exactly.

I actually agree with the politics but not the means. Make Poverty History was fantastic and will have received positive coverage all over the world. Even George Bush will be aware of the strength of feeling.

But a couple of hundred yobs smashing windows and kicking Policemen? Not in my name - to coin a phrase.

Robin! · Post by **Robin!** » 04 Jul 2005, 22:26

Police were OTT and intimidating the protesters IMO.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Jul 2005, 22:27

Ned Ludd wrote:The Police are just ordinary people like you and me. Their job is to make us all feel a little safer - or maybe you wouldn't call them if you were beaten up or burgled?

The so-called protesters came here to fight - if it wasn't G8 it would be animal rights or football hooliganism. They deserve what they get.

Do you read the Daily Express?

Jamesie · Post by **Jamesie** » 04 Jul 2005, 23:10

Robin! wrote:Police were OTT and intimidating the protesters IMO.

Police were lacklustre and granted the protesters far too much leeway IMO.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Jul 2005, 23:32

I know exactly what I'd be thinking if i'd only seen the news or been holed up in an office... But I saw the other side.

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 04 Jul 2005, 23:37

Jamesie wrote:
Robin! wrote:Police were OTT and intimidating the protesters IMO.
Police were lacklustre and granted the protesters far too much leeway IMO.

The Police are everywhere, en mass. Riot Gear etc. I felt very intimindated by their menacing presence at the MPH march.

By all accounts their presence at the STW march last night
was ridiculous.

It's utter madness!

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 00:19

I have a couple of questions.

1. Why are riot police's faces covered (not the guard on the helmet, the balaclava)? It's not to protect from CS gas - you'd need a mask for that. I can only think it's either so we don't see their fear, or to make them look intimidating. At least the anarchists have the excuse that they don't want to get identified!

2. Is one man's (person's, if you like) "good" protestor another man's "bad" protestor? We applaud dissent if it's against regimes we disapprove of - so an ANC protestor who fought back against getting whipped by racist police or a Tiananmenn demonstrator, civil rights demonstrator et cetera get to be "good" but homegrown is definitely a hooligan? Hmm.

Ned Ludd · Post by **Ned Ludd** » 05 Jul 2005, 07:01

I was on Princes Street when it kicked off but had to return to my office when my lunch break ended. Not that I managed to do any work.

As far as I can see, the people who took part yesterday fall into two main groups: -

1. Members or sympathisers of anarchist groups whose stated aim was to cause trouble. Dissent's website makes this clear. These people turned up with their faces covered and many carried weapons. The BBC photos show that the Police were not dressed in riot gear initially. After the demonstrators got nasty the first lines of Police were quickly replaced by officers in full riot gear for good reason. However they still tried to contain the marchers, and only arrested those who assaulted them when their way was blocked.

2. Other individuals who did not want to cause trouble but who had knowlingly attached themsleves to an illegal march organised by groups who did want to cause trouble. They thought that, by dressing as clowns and making awful music, they were some sort of human shield that would keep the Police back and allow their comrades to run around like overgrown school children. Or, if that failed, they could point out that they're law abiding citizens and look how OTT the Police were.

If either group was intimidated by Poplice, whose fault is that?

It's also noticeable that left wing or anarchist groups resent any form of control - even when it's for their own safety. They hadn't lodged a route for their march and were running around in live traffic. Control violates their right to free speech and anyone (the Police) who tries to stop them is automatically over the top/confrontational (see Dissent's website again).

Yet others (fascists, racists, countryside alliance) are automatically bad and shouldn 't even be granted a platform.

Talk about hypocrisy.

Never mind, if the tanned one ever gets into power you can replace the Police with something good and supportive like the Stasi or KGB.

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 05 Jul 2005, 08:00

quote ned ludd>>

Never mind, if the tanned one ever gets into power you can replace the Police with something good and supportive like the Stasi or KGB. end quote<<

Think you will find that Teflon Tony, has already done this - as for the
tanned one - you have been mislead into confusing neo liberasim with socialism.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 09:55

What I would like to see is proper tea breaks and toilet stops for both Police and Anarchists. I would suggest that each hour, everyone gets to leave a place marker and retire to drink coffee, have a biscuit, and go to the loo. Then at a predetermined time the scrap can resume.

Police dogs can have some water, and horses can have some hay or a carrott.

That ref guy from Gladiators can oversee it.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 19:10

Ned 'Lock 'em Up' Ludd wrote: if the tanned one ever gets into power you can replace the Police with something good and supportive like the Stasi or KGB.

Spoken like a true Anarchist. You do know they hate Communists, don't you?

Kinda why I like anarchos, really. Now if you are looking for a bit of Stalinism (especially as you advocate late night arrests) you should look into joining New Labour. Just enough detention and torture to give you the Pot Noodle Horn!

I'm sure the tanned one will be pleased that you have put him back as our Dear Leader. I'll tell him as soon as he gets back from protesting about Neo-Labour's WMDs at Faslane. Next time you want to aim a bit of pseudo-politics at the SSP, get yer facts right mate. Our leader is the other one - you know - Red "Colin" Fox. Do you need a photo?

mr magnolia · Post by **mr magnolia** » 05 Jul 2005, 19:51

yup, I was also going to mention to Ned that with the tanned one / foxy one at the helm we would at least be on the way to getting rid of our own WMD supply.

BTW, is it my imagination or have Colin Fox and Rosie Kane become ever so slightly more sleekit, or portly, since they started living off 50% (?) of the MSP wage?...

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 19:58

Ned Ludd wrote:I was on Princes Street when it kicked off but had to return to my office when my lunch break ended.

Corporate Wage Slave!!! Lackey!!!

As far as I can see, the people who took part yesterday fall into two main groups: -

Groups you missed out :

1. Peelers. They even brought their pets.
2. A very large contingent of young people from, er, Edinburgh, who weren't political but didn't seem to like Police an awful lot. Social policy aside, I don't blame you for not mentioning them because the BBC didn't either - I guess when you want a simple story of troublemaking folk you need to do a bit of pruning (flying geranium joke #1). Ho hum.

These people turned up with their faces covered and many carried weapons.

I thought every cop had a baton? According to Colin on the box tonight, there were cops with their epaulettes covered who wouldn't give their identities. I hope the state aren't dressing up squaddies as police again. Or maybe they were just traffic wardens.

dressing as clowns and making awful music

A harsh but accurate description of LiveGr8M8. What, you meant the situationists? The ones who fight absurdity with absurdity? Maybe it just went over your head (flying geranium joke #2)- I'll try and get you a song sheet next time.

intimidated by Poplice, whose fault is that?

Mwahahaha!!! Pop Lice - are you sure you're not a Surrealist?

It's also noticeable that left wing or anarchist groups resent any form of control

....you understand this much but still believe the press when they say there were ringleaders? Oh right, cos they found - gasp - maps and mobile phones!! Crikey - I thought anarchist organization was an oxymoron!!

So what you're saying is they were bad for not following the rules, and also bad for being organized (ie having ringleaders and following rules of their own). Riiiiight.

Last thing I remember from the news was Dubya and Phony Tony being refused permission for their march on Baghdad, but doing it anyway. And they were *well* tooled up.

Yet others (fascists, racists, countryside alliance) are automatically bad and shouldn 't even be granted a platform.

Anarchists have a proud history, especially in Spain and Russia where they opposed Fascism and Stalinism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain The combination of their analysis of the dangers of both flavours of totalitarianism is admirable and as such, their principled opposition to fascism and racism should be applauded, not held up as an example of why they are (in your opinion) hypocritical.

Talk about hypocrisy.

Speck in thy neighbours eye, my friend. I can just picture you in Biblical times, complaining about the gall that Jesus had in getting angry at the moneylenders in the temple.....

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 20:14

ifstar

You've claimed that during the protest a bin was thrown at medics tending an injured person. Here is a link to the Evening News article which shows what actually transpired - Plod was arresting somebody.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index ... =739212005

Are you going to withdraw this allegation, or do you still think they were treating him - resetting a dislocated shoulder, perhaps?

Please reply as soon as you can - I need to get back to my geraniums.

ifstar · Post by **ifstar** » 05 Jul 2005, 21:03

You are a very sad and bored individual.
Living with you must be such a pleasure.

The fact that you didn't care to private message me to speak to me about it direct or that you didn't just add it on to the thread shows you as being an attention seeker and a would be bully.

From the first picture it wasn't clear if he was being treated or arrested, the main point of fact was that someone was throwing a bin while the police were doing their duty (I would imagine he must have done something to warrant being arrested as not everyone on the march was arrested or treated in such a manner).

Perhaps you should go back and talk to your geraniums as they at least can't tell you that you are a tosser.

Should you every feel the urge to talk to me again then please go and talk to your plants instead.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 21:07

ifstar wrote:you didn't just add it on to the thread

Yes I did. And you didn't respond.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 21:17

ifstar wrote:You are a very sad and bored individual.
Living with you must be such a pleasure.

The fact that you didn't care to private message me to speak to me about it direct or that you didn't just add it on to the thread shows you as being an attention seeker and a would be bully.

From the first picture it wasn't clear if he was being treated or arrested, the main point of fact was that someone was throwing a bin while the police were doing their duty (I would imagine he must have done something to warrant being arrested as not everyone on the march was arrested or treated in such a manner).

Perhaps you should go back and talk to your geraniums as they at least can't tell you that you are a ***.

Should you every feel the urge to talk to me again then please go and talk to your plants instead.

Thanks for your PM, it's ok to miss posts, but you made a very serious allegation indeed that not even the BBC made, and it was their photo.

If it wasn't clear if he was being treated or arrested, your original allegation was inappropriate and a lie. If defending the truth is sad, boring, bullying or attention seeking then so be it.

Compared to your personal insults, yesterday's policing was very polite!

ifstar · Post by **ifstar** » 05 Jul 2005, 21:27

I still can't see any actual request for me to explain or take back my claim, I see your post about it being an arrest, where you said it was an arrest and you posted the same pic as I did (although slightly enlarged), sorry but it didn't make it any clearer. Perhaps you ment to post the one that you did in this thread?

As I said to you in private message, these days i skip or skim your posts but had you posted a specific request or bettter still, the pic you posted in this thread then I would have replied.

Yes I agree the guy was not being tended to as being injured as that was the way it looked on the first picture (to me and I am sure many others) but the fact is that if you are trying to defend someone chucking a bin at a policeman/men when they are arresting someone.

I wonder if you would be as caring for the protestors if your wife/partner and child had been in the area at the time and caught up in it.

Could one of the Mods merge this thread to the other one or close it please as there isn't really any need for two discussions.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 21:34

ifstar wrote: Yes I agree the guy was not being tended to as being injured as that was the way it looked on the first picture

Finally you admit your central point was false. Phew!!

(to me and I am sure many others)

Guesswork on your part about the "many others". You stated it as if it were fact, and used it as the main plank of an argument.

but the fact is that if you are trying to defend someone chucking a bin at a policeman/men when they are arresting someone.

Untrue. Nowhere have I defended that or any other despicable act of violence by PC Plum or protestors (whether they were from Craigmillar or Kracow) and I challenge you to show otherwise.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Jul 2005, 22:15

I wonder if you would be as caring for the protestors if your wife/partner and child had been in the area at the time and caught up in it.

An emotive argument. I'll try to answer in a way that isn't sad, bullying, attention seeking or difficult for you to live with.

1. When I walked round Waverley Bridge to the top of the mound, I overheard someone on a mobile phone saying he had seen a 12 year-old boy getting hit by a policeman when they "waded in" in front of the art gallery.

2. Inside the main scrum, in amongst the people you hate so much (which I happily count myself) I had occasion to brush up against/bump into a couple of people - who immediately smiled as we both politely apologised to each other.

3. Not counting press, voyeurs and demonstrators, if people were trapped during the day it is a matter of opinion if you blame the demo for happening or the police for their containment tactics.

4. The latest civilian body count from Iraq is between 22,000 and 25,000. If you are angry at the mere potential for people being trapped in a conflict they didn't want to be involved with, words probably can't express the all-consuming rage you must feel, as I do, at this slaughter.

5. If my wife had been caught up in the demo, despite her being more than capable of looking after herself, of course I would have been next to her. And if we had our daughter with us we would have left, most probably. My sister is pregnant and works in the centre of town, and I stayed in touch with her throughout the day, offered to get her to her bus and generally checked she wasn't scared, before going off to take my photos.

So, would I care as much for the protestors? I don't even want the police to get sunburn or too thirsty, let alone hit by debris, and worry that everyone involved in the demo must need to eat, drink and go to the loo as I did. All I know is that I am not alone in having some sense of a political conscience and am driven by it. If any group of people can share the same values (and the left are notorious for arguing with each other all the time) then the peaceful amongst those who demonstrated are definitely, politically speaking, my brothers and sisters in struggle.

So I'd look out for my family first, but I would not say that I cared for my fellow protestors, as my comrades I would say I loved them.

Ned Ludd · Post by **Ned Ludd** » 06 Jul 2005, 06:00

Then why didn't you say that all that in the first place - instead of berating anyone who showed support for the Police? You attempt to intellectually bully anyone with opposing views - even to the extent of picking up on typos. You act like some kind of thought police where opposing views must be ripped apart- even if you do have to spend all day online to do it. You've got too much time on your hands.

(Until recently I hadn't used the forum for a while, but last night I recognised your nastiness and realised that you'd just changed your name). No-one can be blamed for thinking you supported the violence - because that's the impression you deliberately tried to create before angrily telling Ifstar to prove it.

For your info, I'm well aware that Mr Fox is your leader. Only he's single handedly taking you off the political map. He has even less charisma than you and, if Tommy can stay away from the burdz for long enough, he won't last much longer. After all, Tommy needs a bigger legacy than getting the name of warrant sales changed.

I do find all the little coded messages of support by your political cronies quite amusing though. Must be easier holding branch messages online than changing the world in a dingy smoke filled room.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 06 Jul 2005, 06:58

Ned Ludd wrote:Then why didn't you say that all that in the first place - instead of berating anyone who showed support for the Police? You attempt to intellectually bully anyone with opposing views - even to the extent of picking up on typos. You act like some kind of thought police where opposing views must be ripped apart- even if you do have to spend all day online to do it. You've got too much time on your hands.

(Until recently I hadn't used the forum for a while, but last night I recognised your nastiness and realised that you'd just changed your name). No-one can be blamed for thinking you supported the violence - because that's the impression you deliberately tried to create before angrily telling Ifstar to prove it.

For your info, I'm well aware that Mr Fox is your leader. Only he's single handedly taking you off the political map. He has even less charisma than you and, if Tommy can stay away from the burdz for long enough, he won't last much longer. After all, Tommy needs a bigger legacy than getting the name of warrant sales changed.

I do find all the little coded messages of support by your political cronies quite amusing though. Must be easier holding branch messages online than changing the world in a dingy smoke filled room.

2005 POL Awards "memorable posts" finalist - Category : "Sour Grapes"

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 06 Jul 2005, 09:01

Ned Ludd wrote:Then why didn't you say that all that in the first place - instead of berating anyone who showed support for the Police? You attempt to intellectually bully anyone with opposing views - even to the extent of picking up on typos. You act like some kind of thought police where opposing views must be ripped apart- even if you do have to spend all day online to do it. You've got too much time on your hands.

(Until recently I hadn't used the forum for a while, but last night I recognised your nastiness and realised that you'd just changed your name). No-one can be blamed for thinking you supported the violence - because that's the impression you deliberately tried to create before angrily telling Ifstar to prove it.

For your info, I'm well aware that Mr Fox is your leader. Only he's single handedly taking you off the political map. He has even less charisma
than you and, if Tommy can stay away from the burdz for long enough, he won't last much longer. After all, Tommy needs a bigger legacy than getting the name of warrant sales changed.

I do find all the little coded messages of support by your political cronies quite amusing though. Must be easier holding branch messages online than changing the world in a dingy smoke filled room.

Mr. Ludd, I am saddened at your vitriol directed at Dadaist, and, IMO, you appear to be missing the point of the whole G8 protestors stance.

Please do not lump all people who have attended rally's/marche's etc into the anarchist group who were responsible for yesterday's debacle. whilst I do not advocate violence, I also do not like the heavy handedness of the Police. I have looked at various reports on what happended yesterday, and it seems that the Police were spoiling for trouble!

You have now brought the Socialist movement into the equasion! you made quite a nasty remark about Tommy Sheridan, which quite frankly was not called for, and which 'hello' has already been thrashed out on POL. what you failed to mention was that TS was the guy who stood up against the unfair Poll Tax System - he went to prison for his principles!
Sadly principles do not seem to be a pre requisite for the major political parties, greed and capitalism are their agenda's.

Perhaps you should get out of your office more, get amongst the people who are concerned about their fellow human's, you may even begin to learn and understand what this is all about.

Ned Ludd · Post by **Ned Ludd** » 06 Jul 2005, 12:05

I haven't missed the point at all and I havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t lumped anyone together. I actually support the right to protest by legal means and was opposed the invasion of Iraq, but this isn't about either of those issues.

It's about those people who came to this city simply to cause trouble, frightening anyone who happened to be in town, including shop and bank workers, and throwing bricks and park benches at Police officers.

These officers are not the state and did not make any of the decisions to which people object. They are individuals who live and work and play among us, and they do not deserve to be treated like that. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m also sure that they were scared too.

I read a load of papers yesterday too and saw the usual Ã¢â‚¬Ëœheavy handedÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ allegations by protesters. 'I was just there to throw bricks and break windows and it's not fair that the police tried to stop me. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s police brutality'. I also noticed that every comment from people other than protesters either praised the police or thought that they allowed the protesters too much leeway. Most tourists and workers claimed to have been terrified by the protesters.

My workplace is hardly a hotbed of right wingers, and everyone to whom IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve spoken holds one of these points of view. And before someone says it againÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.many were on the front lines in a professional capacity and saw the action close up.

Anyway, we all obviously hold our points of view too dearly and wonÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t change each otherÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s minds - so IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll now sign off on this issue and watch the trouble in Stirling with great disappointment.