POL versus Royal Bank Of Scotland

[Maria]

BUT the Forum would not be a Forum if people did not post on it - or if you exclude people who object to not being consulted about major decisions.

Who said anything about excluding people from the Forum?

I for one am totally opposed to sponsorship by any corporate (for profit - business) organisation of any community on line forum, campaign or organisation. Sponsorship comes with strings attached usually and even if it doesn't it attaches you to the values of that organisation - big business tends not to have the same values as community organisations, which are not for profit.

Good values to hold Carla and as an individual feel free to practise what you preach. I would be chuffed if there was a non-profit making organisation out there that would in turn sponsor this non-profit making one. If you know of one, as Bob said, let us all know

I am just confused as to why more money is needed and what for?

The site is only of value if as many people as possible know about it. Sales of tee-shirts to Forum users haven't exactly filled the coffers and banners such as the one on the town hall advertising the website address to the whole of the community cost in the hundreds, not the tens, of pounds. Word of mouth can only do so much. We need to attend local events (such as next Saturday's Festival of Learning) and actively promote the site. As it is an internet site people only show an interest if they can enjoy the 'hands on' experience. Bob has already given an idea of the type of hardware that is necessary to demonstrate the site and he and I are giving up our time to set up and 'man' the stall for yet another year, woefully inadequately equipped. There are also ongoing annual fees incurred in hosting costs etc.

Perhaps we could have had a fundraiser to raise this money and enjoyed another community event in the process rather than accepting RBOS money?

As folk have been reluctant to even buy a tee-shirt I'm not hopeful on that front

It seems a bit draconian to say that people who post on this Forum should not express a critical view of how it is being run.....but we are allowed to express critical views of other things, part of the joy of a forum and its reason I would think.

My beef is with the tone of some of these criticisms.

Not at all happy.....

Yes, sadly, that's the effect some of the posts on this thread had on me too Carla....

[dccairns]

Marya said: "Grumbling about decisions that are made while not being prepared to give up any free time working for the site IMHO carries little weight."

Well, even if you have given up your free time footslogging around the traders umpteen times trying to get them to sign up to the business directory (as I have) your views carry little weight.

I have a question: what if a forum member receives poor service from RBS and they relate their experiences on the forum (as some have with other companies)? Will their comments be removed? If so then RBS have bought out our right to freedom of expression very cheaply.

[Dadaist]

Dadaist, I want you to know that I value your feedback on this issue. Your use of the words 'unaccountable', 'unelected', 'hidden decisions', 'individual whim', 'corruption' all helps me to come to a decision as to whether I really want to continue doing this.

I'm trying very hard to accept it all as I would from a loving family member, but the truth is that I'm finding your allusion to be more of an illusion, or perhaps a delusion on your part.

The sharks are circling and there's a nasty whiff of politics. I think I need some fresh air.

Not intended as a dig at you, Bob. New Labour's decision to go to war - yes - but you, no. Any anger I have is directed at RBOS and what they do overseas where we can't see them - same deal with New Labour and their dirty war.

I would sooner that we didn't buy fancy things and gave the sponsorship space on the front page to a charity or local group.

That's the only "politics" I'm preaching here. Sure it would be nice to reverse the RBOS decision, and introduce a bit of "polling" on the bigger things here on the forum, but that's not my decision to make, just my opinion.

I love this site and I want Bob to continue being it's dad.

[Maria]

Marya said: "Grumbling about decisions that are made while not being prepared to give up any free time working for the site IMHO carries little weight."

Well, even if you have given up your free time footslogging around the traders umpteen times trying to get them to sign up to the business directory (as I have) your views carry little weight..

Just because the decision to accept sponsorship has not been reversed does not mean your views/arguments do not carry any weight dc.

I have a question: what if a forum member receives poor service from RBS and they relate their experiences on the forum (as some have with other companies)? Will their comments be removed? If so then RBS have bought out our right to freedom of expression very cheaply

The very fact that this thread exists answers your question.

[Cynthia]

Quote Marya:

My beef is with the tone of some of these criticisms.

and Quote Marya

Corporate sponsorship for the site was pursued and gained. OK, for political and business reasons some don't approve. Get over it. The RBS logo is on the site to stay.

My point too which you have not answered Marya - I was going to read all the stuff on this thread, and reply, later today - but the tone of your remarks, including the second one above, compelled me to reply sooner - they are not needed I feel - including the implication, in that sentence, that its a done deal and we just have to 'get over it' - the latter your words.
I will read the thread in detail to see a breakdown of what money POL has to raise and get back to you on that one .... perhaps if people know what has to be raised, and agree with the expenditure, people like me who use the POl might be willing to make donations if you tell us where to send these to. I haven't been aware of an appeal for funds and what they are needed for - perhaps this is my fault, I dunno until I read it.....I thought the tee shirts were as much to publicise the forum as to raise money...

but please don't criticise people's 'tone' without considering the impact of your own 'tone' and words....

again I stress I do not want Bob or anyone else to resign but I do think people who use the POL forum should, democratically, have the opportunity to express their views before a major decision is taken such as Corporate sponsorship....

[Dadaist]

I think this one has gone on long enough, peeps. What started as one of my usual digs has spiralled a bit and I think we should all back off before any lasting damage is done.

RBOS sponsorship is very difficult for me to swallow, but my aim is never to upset people personally. Never.

I think everyone has had their say, and that our positions are quite clear.

Please can we just go out now and enjoy the Portobello sunshine while it lasts.

[bellybabe]

Every time I read tnhis thread I getmore and more amazed by what I'm reading. Not one person who is complaining at the sponsorship has, as fafr as I can tell, responded to the point that they could have had a voice by joining the fundraising group when volunteers were asked for. With regard to a poll on the sponsorship, I repeat yet again: POL is more than this forum. How would a poll on the forum accurately represent the views of the user of Portobello Online? The answer has to be that it cannot. It can only represent the views of those who use the forum, and not the many people who use the site but aren't interested in taking part in the forum.

I also see a lot of personal criticism being bandied about. You don't like Marya's tone? Maybe she didn't like everyone else's - has she somehow forfeited her right to express herself? I don't think so. Reading through this thread, that is what I seem to hear - that the forum members can take whatever critical, insulting tone they like, but God forbid those criticised should dare to respond. Perhaps both Marya and Bob have run out of patience with being criticised by people who were unwilling to give up their time and energy to take part in that decision making process.

Bob has explained the situation with the accounts; he has also explained the situation with fundraising and our need for equipment. We struggled last year to publicise POL without adequate equipment; the team will struggle again this year. People who are not giving up time and energy, for no personal gain, may not understand POL's need for the equipment. If that sounds patronising,my apologies, but those of us trying to publicise the site know the struggles involved.

Every person here had a chance to have a say in this decision by joining the team. Not one of the people criticising this decision was willing to get involved. I think it's a bit much to carp at us and then expect us to respond with calmness and equanimity; we are volunteers who work pretty hard, and for little recognition on the whole. We are also human, and it's hard to remain patient with people criticising decisions they refused to be part of at the time.

I would remind those of you getting hacked off with this little impatient rant of mine, that my cards are on the table. I would not have chosen this sponsorship...but I culdn't give up any more of my time to take part in the decision process, just like the rest of you, and so I don't see how I have any right to criticise.

Oh, and it's nice to see some posts acknowledging what we do...they are important to us.

Bellybabe

[Bob Jefferson]

BB, I'm still really angry too with some of the comments that have been made but I'm starting to understand that it goes with the territory. I also think we need to have some perspective and remember that it's a handful of people who are making all the fuss.

To those of you who posted messages of support on behalf of the silent majority, my thanks too. I'm not a quitter by nature but at times the personal jibes are very difficult to take. I have a message for those of you who spoiled my weekend, but I would have to disable the profanity filter first.

As Dadaist appears to be calling a truce I'm happy to accept that in the spirit it is intended and file this thread away for posterity.

Next mods meeting should be lively!

[MrSpoon]

thread_importance := 0

[Dadaist]

[WW]

I am new to this subject and web site, but for what it is worth the RBS is to the best of my knowledge the only bank which has local business managers in a Portobello branch. Other banks seem to prefer anonymous faceless advisors in a phone bank somewhere in the world.

[Hawkeye]

I think that it would be a pity to file this thread for posterity because Dadaist has flushed out a useful debate that goes beyond the emblazoned logo for the RBS. I'm sorry that you had a bad weekend Bob as I know you've invested a lot of time, effort and determination to get the web site up and running but more importantly to maintain it and make sure that the topics are current and relevant. Maybe it does go with the territory and I know only too well how that feels.

However, it is easier with supportive committee members to discuss matters with and who can bring different perspectives to proposed courses of action. Is there such a support? This is why I think this subject is important as it is wider than the £500 sponsorship and raises questions on the future governance of the site. Also, heaven forbid that Bob should be mowed down by a speeding motorist one day, but where would such a catastrophe leave us?

It seems that there are quite a few people with POL's interest at heart who would help, and I don't mean just the moderators who perform a separate function, although as Bellybabe says, we all have busy lives. Maybe the web site has now grown to the point that all decisions, its business direction and funding requires a small sub-committee – or am I speaking with a lack of knowledge. Maybe this already exists but if so, why feel so personally attacked?

For instance, I heard that one development is to present to older people in the community the benefits of POL. But has the research been done to determine what the needs are for older people who have not yet joined the internet? Should this involve community education and how is the barrier of acquiring hardware to be overcome?

Being only a recent attendee at the Community Council I am not aware of when the approval was given for the acceptance of sponsorship and, also, I am not aware of the equipment needed to promote POL. But I do know how generous this community is and that fundraising from within the community should not be discarded therefore I support Carla in what she says. In PCATS, we looked at tee-shirts but with only £2 profit on a £8 shirt it was never going to be a big money spinner (look at how cheap shirts are at M&S) – but great publicity. If you are looking at raising funds could easily get £500 from a simple jumble sale what with all the old video tapes, cds and 3G cards (what ever they are) that people have.

The calendar, now there's a money spinner – probably £5000 each year although it's probably a bit late to try and get one out this year, but certainly for the future worth considering. Do not dismiss what can be achieved from the result of one attempt. Incidentally, it was much appreciated that the profits from the POL tee-shirts were to be donated to PCATS.

In summary, Bob continues to do a great job with the site but as it grows more, input in its management is needed to allow ownership by the community. Regardless of the definition you want to make of that phrase, the site should not become a dictatorship. Dadaist, as usual, has put his head above the parapet and started a useful, healthy discussion at this stage in POL's life that will lead to its successful future. Please continue.


PS – Taking note of what has been said about accounts, PCATS accounts will shortly appear in a more public forum. We still hold money in reserve for whatever battle lies ahead.


PPS – Where art thou Porty?

[Maria]

You make several interesting points in your post Hawkeye that well deserve discussion (and lest my tone is misconstrued, I mean that sincerely!). For example, what indeed would happen to the site without Bob? However, it is unfortunate that there only seems to be a demand to form some sort of management committee for the website when a decision is taken which proves controversial with some users. When everything is ticking along nicely not many really want to get involved (can't say I blame them ).
The poor response to recent appeals for volunteers to take on various duties is illustrative of that fact. As in most walks of life, it tends to be the same group of folk who show willing each time. Many, I know, cannot spare the time and that's perfectly reasonable, but as one of those regular 'volunteers' (and I use that term loosely folks ) I know that Bob welcomes other views and fresh input. If there is a 'dictatorship' it's a mighty benign one!

[wangi]

And remember there are a lot of people who hate the idea of committees with a vengeance... Well ok, I cannot say how many people - but I can say I'm one of them.

[Brian McCrow]

Having spent 9 weeks in the USA where I decided not to maintain frequent visits to the POL site I was dismayed to read this thread today on my return. A small number of us have spent many hours tramping the streets of Porty, knocking on the doors of small businesses, writing copy for their entries in the Directory, handling rejections and holding review meetings on Saturday mornings, where various decisions were made. As I understand it POL is not owned by the community but is rather a communication vehicle for various interested parties. While it enjoys a close relationship with the Portobello Community Council (PCC) there is no ownership by the PCC.

In our sub-group where we decided to collect some monies from local businesses in exchange for promoting their services we also discussed the question of getting more corporate sponsorship. A number of businesses were approached and RBS responded positively. We had decided that we would have more than one corporate sponsor if we could find them however to date RBS have been the only positive respondee. Of course, by having one sponsor it is often easier to persuade others to come on board. These monies from the various sources will be used to assist in the further development of the POL web site and services, including the development of community services such as teaching older people to use the Web. There is no mandate for such a group to take a Forum poll before making any decisions. Bob did discuss the various points with his fellow moderators.

I am a RBS customer and don't have any qualms about their operations.

If you want to become involved in the continuation of these fund raising activities then do tear yourself away from your PC and work with us.

Sniping from the sidelines is a comfortable armchair activity. We still have over 50% of the businesses in Porty to be persuaded that an entry in the Directory will be beneficial so why not get off your chair and do some graft. There are, of course, other ways to obtain funds, such as coffee mornings, bring and buy sales, member funding, T shirt sales etc. I see these as additional activities not replacements.

A wider debate about the ownership of POL and its future direction may be necessary. I personally would like POL to become more of a communication vehicle between the Portobello Community Council, the Edinburgh Council and the Portobello citizens and as such would prefer a democratic structure linked to the Community Council such that we can have sensible discussions with a wider community than is currently represented via the Forum.

I can understand why Bob Jefferson is so pissed off by the comments in this thread as I feel the same. We started this activity in good faith and many of the comments are typically way over the top and demoralising. At a rough guess I have put in at least 50 hours on this activity alone and I'm sure the others have put in similar hours. I know that Bob puts in many more hours often at the expense of his young family. I believe that people should still display good manners when posting on an open Forum. Having a rant doesn't lead to good debate.

[Dadaist]

Brian, you forgot to mention that I lost you the Eleanor Robertson clothes shop account because I dared to post a conversation which took place between me and Mr Bean in his old greasy spoon.

This is Portobello ONLINE. Nowhere in the forum rules does it obligate members to do anything other than hang out with us here in our virtual community.

I'm glad Brian has seen fit to tell us how many hours he has clocked up for POL - immediately cheapening them in my eyes. How can one person be more qualified than another to get a say - and who is to decide what the measurement unit of contribution is?

If you use the number of posts as a measure, Porty and ecm should be getting more of a say because of their high post count!!!

Voluntary work should expect no reward other than the satisfaction that doing it brings.

To use voluntary service as a card in arguing that website forum members should do things other than use a website is very odd.

You can do fundraising with something as simple as a Paypal button.

[Porty]

I have been without access to a PC for most of the weekend.

I don't agree that this thread contains any denigration or personal insults to Bob or anyone else for that matter. If people think otherwise, especially if it is one of my posts, point it out then I will apologise and/or withdraw it

I would like to apologise to BB for confusing the role of Moderator with policy maker. What she said is correct.

Hawkeye's post is excellent and I totally support the idea of a committee that oversees the POL operation. One of the reasons that moderators get caught up in arguments or controversial policy decisions is the lack of a transparent structure and clarity. People, including me, get confused about their role and responsibility.

A committee will help solve this and lessen the burden on Bob. As Hawkeye states it will also help address a situation where Bob ceases to be around. We already had this experience when Bob resigned at the end of last year and we went.....what now?

Back to RBOS.

I am a local trader. Last year I joined the re-formed Traders Association at a cost of £75 (from memory). The reformation of the TA was in part to protect local traders from the threat of a stronger and much larger corporation. I believe that the TA contributed about £6000 to the campaign.

I now find that my community website is being sponsored and thereby endorsed by a not to dis-similar corporation. It gives them an unfair advantage over my business. Furthermore, other people have expressed concerns over the corporation's ethics and practices on a more macro scale. I am not prepared to accept this and if necessary I will write to PCC and my MP's to have the policy stopped.

Much has been made of the fundraising committee's rights in terms of policymaking, as they did all the work. Whilst I understand this train of thought and for many things it would be acceptable, it is not acceptable when it comes to overall sponsorship of the site. Many people have done lots to promote the site and it has not earned them any decision making power. Indeed they never asked for it.

As I understand it the remit of this fund raising team was to launch and recruit for a business directory, no more. There are other fundraising projects most of which haven't got off the ground.

There were 6 members of the fund raising team; dc, brian maccrow, Bob, Marya, Mr Magnolia myself and Dadaist got access to the forum when he was promoted to mod.

Only 3 of the above 7 have spoken up and have stated that they would not take the RBOS money. Even if the other 4 (Mr M, BM, BJ and M) agree that we should take the money it is too close to call for such an important issue.

Allow me to envisage a hypothetical situation where we had all joined the fundraising team and we were offered £500 by Tesco to sponsor the site. Would we have taken it? I think not. Our local traders would have been up in arms, so would our MP's and so would PCC. Tesco are a bad choice for Butchers and Fishmongers. RBOS are equally bad for Estate Agents, Solicitors and Mortgage Brokers and we have 6 of those local small businesses on our High Street.

Funds

As far I know we have around £600, as far as I can gather a 3g card costs about £350. Bob has said further up the thread that we don't need the RBOS money. The business directory is renewable, next year we will have enough for a data projector. (I am yet to be convinced we need either of those items) We do not need to sell our independence so we should not do it.

Hawkeye closes his post with the following paragraph.

In summary, Bob continues to do a great job with the site but as it grows more, input in its management is needed to allow ownership by the community. Regardless of the definition you want to make of that phrase, the site should not become a dictatorship. Dadaist, as usual, has put his head above the parapet and started a useful, healthy discussion at this stage in POL's life that will lead to its successful future. Please continue.

I wholly agree, let's get on with it.

BTW I am a customer of Tesco and regularly recommend their wine to my friends.

[Dadaist]

I can understand why Bob Jefferson is so *** off by the comments

...

I believe that people should still display good manners when posting on an open Forum.

Please then have manners enough not to type in profanities, sir.

[Maria]

To use voluntary service as a card in arguing that website forum members should do things other than use a website is very odd.

Of course people are free to use the website without putting any voluntary service. However, just as my consumption of copious amounts of chocolate hasn't lead to any offers of a directorship from Cadbury's, regularly logging on to the Forum or consulting the 'What's On' section doesn't make someone policy director of POL.

A bit of graft is needed. Just logging onto the Forum does not ensure that the POL website is kept up to date. Without volunteers for example, the front page and the Group, What's On and Local Business Directory will become stagnant. So yes, the Forum may continue but the POL website will start wither and die. Has anyone volunteered to help Bob with the library display yet? Or can we persuade any of you to help out with the POL stand at the Festival of Learning on Saturday? If you want to help Bob then start by doing something positive instead of tearing something down.

There were 6 members of the fund raising team; dc, brian maccrow, Bob, Marya, Mr Magnolia myself and Dadaist got access to the forum when he was promoted to mod.

Only 3 of the above 7 have spoken up and have stated that they would not take the RBOS money. Even if the other 4 (Mr M, BM, BJ and M) agree that we should take the money it is too close to call for such an important issue.

dc admits she abstained by not intervening with her views early on in discussions. Porty wasn't at any of the meetings so didn't voice any opinion. Bob, Brian and myself have all declared in favour of sponsorship. Mr M has not voiced his views.

I make that

3 in favour
3 abstentions

[wangi]

There were 6 members of the fund raising team; dc, brian maccrow, Bob, Marya, Mr Magnolia myself and Dadaist got access to the forum when he was promoted to mod.

<<waves hand>>... 200+ photographs... And xxxx too - the hard work behind the directory.

[Porty]

There were 6 members of the fund raising team; dc, brian maccrow, Bob, Marya, Mr Magnolia myself and Dadaist got access to the forum when he was promoted to mod.

<<waves hand>>... 200+ photographs... And xxxx too - the hard work behind the directory.

Ooops!!! I should have acknoledged that, really sorry. I just took the names from the post on POL promotions. Out of interest would you have taken RBOS money?

[Maria]

RBOS are equally bad for Estate Agents, Solicitors and Mortgage Brokers and we have 6 of those local small businesses on our High Street.

The argument against Tesco is that it's arrival in Portobello would put small traders out of business. Currently those 6 local businesses trade alongside the RBS , with some having done so for very many years.

PS

Sorry Wangi That's what comes of not liking committees

[Porty]

I make that

3 in favour
3 abstentions

How can one abstain from something they were not asked to vote on? Are you saying it did go to a vote but we weren't there?

[Maria]

There was a verbal discussion and one carried out on the dedicated Forum. We didn't have ballot boxes....

[Porty]

RBOS are equally bad for Estate Agents, Solicitors and Mortgage Brokers and we have 6 of those local small businesses on our High Street.

The argument against Tesco is that it's arrival in Portobello would put small traders out of business. Currently those 6 local businesses trade alongside the RBS , with some having done so for very many years.

PS

When was that argument made and who to?

[Dadaist]

Marya, the forum is the heartbeat of the site. I defend any user's right to only come here, post, and do nothing else.

I value their posts as contributions, and would like to thank them for brightening up my day. This is of inestimable value to me.

Text can be posted on the site or on the forum.

Photos can be posted on the site or on the forum.

Announcements or events can be posted on the site or on the forum.

The forum is a living conversation which has a mood all of its own, and it has been nice interacting with people from Portobello who I would otherwise never have got to know via this new method of human interaction where all are made equal.

[Maria]

When was that argument made and who to?

You just did

Tesco are a bad choice for Butchers and Fishmongers.

[Maria]

I defend any user's right to only come here, post, and do nothing else.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, of course, people are free to post and do nothing else. I'm thinking about doing the same myself soon

[dccairns]

May I just correct Marya on a point. I do not believe I have abstained from the vote on RBS spsonsorship just because I did not speak up earlier. I was never party to any discussions on whether this was a good or desirable idea. It was briefly mentioned en passant amongst a load of other things as a fait accompli. Because there was a lot going on and I have had other things on my mind I did not pick up on it right away but was glad that Dadaist rised the subject again. I have already said I was remiss but I'm not convinced that my raising objections at that stage would have made any difference anyway.

As POL gets bigger and handles more money this issue is only going to come back again and again which is why I believe we should start to think about clarifying decision-making methods and responsibilities on the website.

In my view the best thing to do would be to gain some kind of consensus on this.

[wangi]

Ooops!!! I should have acknoledged that, really sorry. I just took the names from the post on POL promotions. Out of interest would you have taken RBOS money?

Sure, I'd take anyone's money. I'd take Tesco's money too. However given a choice I wouldn't put any sponsors logo on the front page - an "about POL" page which also described who's behind the the site, goals etc would seem an ideal place for the logo.

[Maria]

I do not believe I have abstained from the vote on RBS sponsorship just because I did not speak up earlier.

Apologies if you felt you had no opportunity to make your views felt. The dedicated Forum was meant to allow folk who couldn't make a meeting aware of what was happening. I myself didn't make it along to every meeting and found it useful.

As POL gets bigger and handles more money

At the risk of sounding melodramatic I am becoming more and more pessimistic about this possibility with every passing day.

[Porty]

When was that argument made and who to?

You just did

Tesco are a bad choice for Butchers and Fishmongers.

So as I thought, after the decison was taken.

[Maria]

So as I thought, after the decison was taken.

OK, you've lost me completely now. What decision?

[Porty]

At the risk of sounding melodramatic I am becoming more and more pessimistic about this possibility with every passing day.

Eh? we have more money than we have ever had, not counting the RBOS money, and in the business directory a renewable revenue source.

I believe your fears are unfounded. This type of debate can only make us stronger. Hawkeye's suggestion is an excellent one and shall provide POL good custodianship in years to come.

[Porty]

So as I thought, after the decison was taken.

OK, you've lost me completely now. What decision?

The decison to accept RBOS sponsorship, as dc said; fait accompli.