Torture-Poll

[Gemini]

Torture

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e10900.htm

[Porty]

More torture as it is in the real world, rather than the fantasy situation that this thread started with.....

This was the first post on the thread.

"Forensic evidence has placed old Yasif Omar Hafin at the scene of one of the failed London bombings. He quite probably has information on the other Terrorists and perhaps even more.

Should the Police/Army/SAS torture Hafin as a means to the end of protecting UK citizens?"

Where is the fantasy?

[Porty]

They don't care, and won't respond. The POL Torture Posse are just a reflection of an uncomfortable fact I guess - some people are happy for others to suffer, including innocents, if they think it ensures their own safety.

The poll was about a specific set of circumstances. Extreme situations sometimes require extreme actions. In the real world it was more than reasonable to assume that Oman was guilty.

I can't speak for anyone else but perhaps no -one has responded because they know their own minds and are not convinced or influenced by your argument. Just a thought.

[Cynthia]

Blair wants to throw away Habeas Corpus - How can we defend our rights?
A new campaign has been launched against the torture flights that take a break at Prestwick see -
http://densden1.blogspot.com/

What can you do?.....Write to Gavin Strang MP gillana@parliament.uk, strangg@parliament.uk
who has up to now supported the Terrorism Bill and
Sign the SACC petition against the Terrorism Bill - remember the 2nd reading of the Bill was passed by ONLY ONE VOTE http://new.PetitionOnline.com/SACC03/petition.html

Everyone who witnesses or is affected by Blair/Bush authoritarian regime change in this country as well as elsewhere, is a potential activist to oppose that regime change - check the list of speakers at this lobby of Parliament - one 82 year old pensioner manhandled out of LP conference - good on him.....

Wednesday 9 Nov - 1pm - London Mass Lobby Against the Terrorism BillJoin a mass lobby of the Westminster Parliament from 1 p.m onwards at the House of Commons on Wed 9 November.
Public Meeting 6.30pm Grand Committee Room, House of Commons,
Speakers include: Gareth Peirce (Campaigning Solicitor); Shami Chakrabarti (Director of Liberty) Sir Iqbal Sacranie (Muslim Council of Britain); Walter Wolfgang (wrongly detained under the Terrorism Act at Labour Party Conference) Stephanie Harrison, (Campaign Against the Criminalisation of Communities) Kate Hudson (CND) Lindsey German, (Stop the War Coalition)


Carla

[Cynthia]

and here's the story from the Sunday Herald

Police to probe US ‘torture flights' landing in Scotland

http://www.sundayherald.com/52461

shocking even by current standards of what is happening under Bush/Blair regimes


Carla

[Gemini]

The Scottish Police appear to be a 'joke' as far as the
CIA are concerned.

The whole scenario is ing - it makes me sick.

[Gemini]

Horrifying - not for the faint hearted

http://www.thecatsdream.com/blog/2005/1 ... emical.htm

[xxxx]

More torture as it is in the real world, rather than the fantasy situation that this thread started with.....

This was the first post on the thread.

"Forensic evidence has placed old Yasif Omar Hafin at the scene of one of the failed London bombings. He quite probably has information on the other Terrorists and perhaps even more.

Should the Police/Army/SAS torture Hafin as a means to the end of protecting UK citizens?"

Where is the fantasy?

The fantasy is that by the swift administration of torture, terrorist crimes will be thwarted. It is a fantasy because there is no evidence for it. Where is the example of torture preventing a terrorist attack?

He quite probably has information on the other Terrorists and perhaps even more.

Where does the 'quite probably' and 'perhaps' come from. What is the basis of this reasoning? There have been no bombings since, so maybe there was no information to be extracted?

Terrorism for beginners: If you know your operatives are going to be tortured, you will provide information on a 'need to know' basis. Therefore no information will emerge no matter how much agony is inflicted. Footsoldiers are cheap. You do not send the 'evil genius' off to be blown up. Basic maoism will overcome the problem that torture presents to the serious minded terrorist.

Wild hypotheses like the one that started this thread are great fun for the fearful,embattled and outraged citizens of portobello, and very useful for people who should know better:


"In the case for example of a ten year old girl who has been taken hostage with someone holding a knife to her throat, and its clear he is going to try and cut her head off, the officer would be justified in using a shoot to the head policy."

Thats Ian Blair, met chief of police. Hard to argue with that , little ten year old girl (if it was an ASBO class male, it wouldn't work the same) ribbons in hair and everything,but when was the last time that happened? How does it explain shooting an innocent man,going to work, in the head 9 times?

Correct answer: it doesn't. It can't

The utility of these fantasies are to distract the recipient from the realities and implications of the desired policies. The flipside is the discussion of these reveals how simple minded they are and how careless people are of their liberties.

[Gemini]

Taken from ICH

"The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care.". . . "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think big." : Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the Watergate tapes

[Cynthia]

Remember the time when we were debating "Was there / wasn't there WMD in Iraq"? - ending up with a conclusion by most of us that there were definitely no WMD in Iraq - certainly no evidence has been brought forward - and so the reason for going to war was changed by TB to getting rid of Saddam.

Ofcourse there were no WMD until US/UK Governments started to bomb and then there were. Well the same goes for chemical weapons it would seem.
See this article from Socialist Worker at http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/articl ... le_id=7756
an Italian TV documentary apparently claiming through interviews with US forces personnel that they used phosphorus when they bombed Fallujah - about a year ago - which burns the skin right down to the bone on contact....
I expect you can find another reference to this in another paper if you don't like reading the Socialist Worker.....

but then again - how many of us are surprised at this? Says a lot in itself

Carla

[Dadaist]

Carla

Don't forget that the Bolsheviks used chemical weapons also.

During the war against allied intervention, Budenny used poison gas against White forces.

Whilst there are obviously much worse examples before and after this incident (mustard gas in WW1, nuclear arms in WW2), Socialist Worker cannot absolve itself, as a supporter of the Bolshevik regime, from the use of WMDs.

[Cynthia]

I have no idea if you are right or not Dadaist, but I use Socialist Worker as a source of information, which I trust as from my experience their reporting seems to be factually correct, re present circumstances and definitely re Blair.

Whatever may or may not have happened in the Bolshevik regime, and I really didn't know about this, it doesn't stop the awfulness of this assertion by this Italian film that the US/UK forces have used chemical weapons in the attack on Fallujah does it? What do you think about that?

As I said I would imagine that this has been reported elsewhere but I may be wrong - perhaps someone who has more time can have a search? eg in The Herald.

Carla

[Dadaist]

I'm well aware it doesn't prevent the fact Carla. And don't forget the use of depleted uranium by the UK/US in Iraq also which may as well be a WMD by the cancers it produces.

It's just always struck me as odd that pretty much every bad thing done by the UK/US is suddenly ok when done by Lenin.

[rathbone]

And while you're pondering that, have a go at this:

www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie

Try this link, click on a body part and drag him with your mouse. It's torture made easy

[Porty]

Rathers, the link aint working.

[Dadaist]

http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm

[Porty]

I have no idea if you are right or not Dadaist, but I use Socialist Worker as a source of information, which I trust as from my experience their reporting seems to be factually correct,
Carla

Carla, the article you provided the link to, has no names, no identified sources. How can you be so certain that its factually correct?

[Dadaist]

I have no idea if you are right or not Dadaist, but I use Socialist Worker as a source of information, which I trust as from my experience their reporting seems to be factually correct,
Carla

Carla, the article you provided the link to, has no names, no identified sources. How can you be so certain that its factually correct?

She didn't say she was "so certain", rather that their reporting "seems" to be factually correct.

[Porty]

I have no idea if you are right or not Dadaist, but I use Socialist Worker as a source of information, which I trust as from my experience their reporting seems to be factually correct,
Carla

Carla, the article you provided the link to, has no names, no identified sources. How can you be so certain that its factually correct?

She didn't say she was "so certain", rather that their reporting "seems" to be factually correct.

Fair enough.

Carla, the article you provided the link to, has no names, no identified sources. On what basis does it seem factually correct?

[Dadaist]

Porty

What do you think of the fact that the US are unprepared to sanction torture on their own soil, but seem to be obtaining information from torture carried out elsewhere?

If the allegation is true, do you think they are cowards?

[Porty]

Porty

What do you think of the fact that the US are unprepared to sanction torture on their own soil, but seem to be obtaining information from torture carried out elsewhere?

If the allegation is true, do you think they are cowards?

Not cowards no. Liars and duplicitous (sp) most definitely. And If I was to doubt one of the above positions, it would be that they "unprepared to sanction torture on their own soil". I think they def do sanction it.

[Cynthia]

Dadaist said I'm well aware it doesn't prevent the fact Carla. And don't forget the use of depleted uranium by the UK/US in Iraq also which may as well be a WMD by the cancers it produces.

It's just always struck me as odd that pretty much every bad thing done by the UK/US is suddenly ok when done by Lenin.

Thanks Dadaist - I can't honestly say what the SWP would comment on what you say - why don't you email them and find out? especially as the article is in this week's Newspaper - It would be good to get an answer...I would be interested to know as I don't have time to read enough to find out....

Porty said:
Carla, the article you provided the link to, has no names, no identified sources. How can you be so certain that its factually correct?

As Dadaist kindly pointed out, I was only speaking from my own experience. As you know, the whole Iraq War (attack on and occupation rather) has been littered with lies - how can I possibly prove anything, although I take your point that the article does not give details of sources of information. So try these instead - I have only limited time to search - you could search also. I am not saying these things have definitely happened but, as with the 100,000 dead allegation by the BMA, it seems not unlikely this could have happened. Especially when we are hearing things like CIA secret torture flights and detention camps -

Article on BBC News Website http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4417024.stm

US 'uses incendiary arms' in Iraq
"The US assault began exactly a year ago
Italian state TV, Rai, has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of using white phosphorus bombs against civilians in the Iraqi city of Falluja."

and from The Independent Online
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 327136.ece

article by an embedded journalist
"'I treated people who had their skin melted' "
By Dahr Jamail - Published: 15 November 2005

and from The Independent Online
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 325560.ece

"US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah
By Peter Popham
Published: 08 November 2005
Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city."

I expect I could find more sources if you want and if I had time.....again I can't say definitely these allegations are true - but my personal opinion is that there is a lot more about the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan to be revealed, and it won't put Blair or Bush in a good light.

Carla

[Cynthia]

I should have checked today's BBC News Headlines - more on the use of chemical weapons allegations - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 440664.stm
including chilling interview with US soldier witness and photos.

US Government now confirming they used it as a weapon in Fallujah. When you hear the soldier talk about its effects and see, thankfully only one, photo of the effects.....you appreciate what this must have meant to those affected.

Also here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 440134.stm evidence of Iraqi detainees (prisoners) found starving and showing signs of torture with hints of more to come ... ie this is the 'tip of the iceberg'

Also if you had difficulty reading one of the Independent articles it is here again at http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e10909.htm


Carla

[Porty]

Carla,

I already knew that there were sources that would prove the use of incendiary weapons but there was no sources in the SW article, yet it seemed true to you, that was my point.

It appears that everyone other than the far from objective Anti-War campaigners are happy to accept that the chemicals used are not on any official list of banned weapons. So technically no crime I'm afraid.The US did not breach International law, at least in this incident

International law is a concept that is embraced by yourself and those that share your views. Except when it doesn't suit you, of course.

[Dadaist]

International law is a concept that is embraced by yourself and those that share your views. Except when it doesn't suit you, of course.

What does international law say about torture?

[Porty]

The same as it does about terrorism and murder.

[Dadaist]

The same as it does about terrorism and murder.

So you embrace it (terrorism and murder) except when it doesn't suit you (torture) ?

[Gemini]

Read the Articles:


http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e11020.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le9175.htm

The bigger picture - again, some horrific clips.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

1 edit

[Porty]

Dada, it may have escaped your notice but most countries and regimes have an ambivalent attitude to International law. It is basically unenforceable.

[Dadaist]

Dada, it may have escaped your notice but most countries and regimes have an ambivalent attitude to International law. It is basically unenforceable.

Answer the question - note I said "you", not "most countries and regimes" just as you used "you" on Carla.

** So you embrace it (terrorism and murder) except when it doesn't suit you (torture) ? **

[Porty]

The same as it does about terrorism and murder.

So you embrace it (terrorism and murder) except when it doesn't suit you (torture) ?

I have no involvement with IL on a day-to-day basis. Its not me that's claiming it has been breached. I dare say I would be much the same as everyone else.

[Dadaist]

I think that anyone who condemns murder and terrorism but is prepared for torture to be sanctioned is a morally bankrupt hypocrite.

If they are unprepared to carry out the torture themselves, I think they are a coward too.

[Porty]

I think that anyone who condemns murder and terrorism but is prepared for torture to be sanctioned is a morally bankrupt hypocrite.

You are entitled to your thoughts.

[Dadaist]

I think that anyone who condemns murder and terrorism but is prepared for torture to be sanctioned is a morally bankrupt hypocrite.

You are entitled to your thoughts.

Indeed.

[Cynthia]

I have no involvement with IL on a day-to-day basis. Its not me that's claiming it has been breached.

Porty

its not me either Porty, I can't remember ever mentioning breaking International Law as my concern - what I expressed was shock that, as the article by Peter Popham in the Independent put it

the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

If this is not on the IL banned list then it should be if it does the damage some of the sources claim it does, including video and photo coverage.

Re sources - I think the Socialist Worker article was brief but it did mention the source was the same as mentioned in the Independent - ie the Italian Film Company - can't scroll back that far whilst posting this but I think you will find that I am correct - its' name was something like Fai or Rai. I agree the other articles were longer, more detailed and also, probably more accepted in terms of being seen as more mainstream media. I am glad they too covered it as well as the Socialist Worker.


The point I was raising was, apart from telling people about the appalling news that this terrible substance is being used indiscriminately, and therefore would include civilians, in a country we apparently started to bomb in order to save it from Saddam Hussein because he was alleged to be still harbouring chemical weapons, having used them in the past. Isn't there a bit of irony, hypocrisy, double standards in this and more importantly, isn't this, as with arguably most aspects of the UK/US aggression against Iraq, mass murder?

In my opinion, Tony Blair and George Bush should be held criminally responsible for the deaths of the 100,000 people in Iraq, and thousands in Afghanistan, not to mention the soldiers who have died and people who continue to die of the after effects of war - disease, injuries, poverty, etc.

Carla