Thanks (all about the Play Pen forum and the numbers thread)

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:37

I couldn't care less about "a strike" - the issue was the deletion of a thread. Discussion of that remained.

You really are just out to cause hassle and ill feeling, aren't you? You really are a mystery - what causes these periodic out bursts and desire to cause trouble?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:39

wangi wrote:I couldn't care less about "a strike" - the issue was the deletion of a thread. Discussion of that remained.

You really are just out to cause hassle and ill feeling, aren't you? You really are a mystery - what causes these periodic out bursts and desire to cause trouble?

Just because you couldn't care less about it does not give you the moral right to delete any and all mention of it.

As far as I knew, I was out to start a thread on the forum where we see how high we can count.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:41

"Moral right"! Get over yourself, will you!

"It's only a forum dear"

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:44

Thanks.

Post by **wangi** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:44

This is the miner's strike all over again. And you think I'm Thatcher, don't you!?

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 04 Aug 2007, 22:48

wangi wrote:This is the miner's strike all over again. And you think I'm Thatcher, don't you!?

I guess you match her ruthlessness but you sure lack her eloquence.

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 05 Aug 2007, 08:06

I hope that having slept on it both of you have calmed down a little.

Wangi, I apologise for having given Dada the opportunity to release his invective in that way, but you know how he gets when he's angry. You quite rightly reminded him of posting guideline 7 which he clearly breached.

I also apologise if the term 'postal strike' was misleading. It was a rather lame way to refer to our decision to stop posting as a protest against the deletion of the counting thread.

On the specific points you made in reply to me and Dada:

You and the Moderators are very much appreciated by the majority of people who use this site. Unfortunately, it is a thankless job (as I know from personal experience).... if you are doing it well, nobody notices, and if you are doing it not so well everybody comes down on you like a ton of bricks.

I was aware that you had left the "(deletion of) Counting Thread" up. The point I was making was that any subsequent postings on the subject were deleted and, as Dada has pointed out, all references to the 'strike' were expunged. Your technical explanation may be correct, I am not qualified to judge, and you were clearly correct to remove any personal or aggressive attacks, but the majority I saw were not like that. The reason there were so many attempts to post was entirely due to so many posts being removed!

There are currently 643 people on the membership list, not to mention those who browse but are not members. Dada contacted a dozen. That is hardly 'wide scale', hence my comment that people who came on to the site who didn't know what was going on would have been none the wiser. To me, from the outside, it appeared to be an attempt by the Mods to ensure that dissent on this Forum was suppressed.

There is a moral point here. You make it clear in your responses that you disliked the idea of people counting ad nauseam. A reasonable point of view. I can't understand why people regularly post what they are drinking, but I don't contact the mods and ask for that thread to be deleted. It's got no more to do with Portobello than the counting thread. There are lots of 'boring' thread on this ( and every other) Forum. As has been pointed out elsewhere, if you're not interested in them, then don't bother looking. It is morally wrong to remove something, without consultation, simply because you don't like it. The Counting Thread was breaking no 'rules'. Mods are there to apply the 'rules', not to exercise their own prejudices.

As for the question of 'post pumping', that's just the cyber equivalent of penis envy. If people get off on it, good luck to them. You will know from looking at my stats that I don't have that problem.

Now, can we start the reconciliation phase?

ali · Post by **ali** » 05 Aug 2007, 09:42

rathbone wrote:............ The Counting Thread was breaking no 'rules'. Mods are there to apply the 'rules', not to exercise their own prejudices.

Thank you Rathbone for your incisive post-fight analysis. I feel that the quote above is at the heart of the matter.

Wangi was being a little slippery by claiming that he didn't attempt to suppress any discussion of the issue because he left that one thread alone. However that was not where the debate was taking place. He definitely was deleting any other reference to the dispute and he was kept busy for several hours.

Dada is Dada I'm afraid........love him or loathe him - it's never going to be dull.....or quiet, when he's around.

I repeat what I said earlier - if the post-pumping issue had been brought to people's attention and discussed then people wouldn't have reacted in the way they did. The boring/interesting thing is just stupid. Some days there wouldn't be much left on talkporty if posts had to be "interesting".

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 05 Aug 2007, 11:28

Whilst I much prefer Rathbone's conciliatory tone to Dada's reproachful one, the fact remains that we still do not have a good enough answer as to why the mods/admin felt it necessary to remove the original counting thread and all subsequent references to the resulting strike.

Even last night one of Dada's posts was removed, as it contained a screen print of a totally inoffensive notification of the strike dated 2.8.07

Censorship of this kind should only be used to remove anything that is against the rules of the forum and that is not the case here

aileenandfearghal · Post by **aileenandfearghal** » 05 Aug 2007, 11:40

ali wrote:I particularly enjoyed aileenandwhatsisname's post - didn't understand a word of that wikipedia link but enjoyed trying to....................

Nice to be referenced by someone, even as 'whatsisname'!!

I couldn't see the harm in the counting thread at all and I really agree with the comments about the other threads that some people find boring - there are quite a few that I never bother looking in.

Quite a fight it has caused though!

Nelson Hatstand · Post by **Nelson Hatstand** » 05 Aug 2007, 11:45

wangi wrote:
rathbone wrote:One of the most disturbing aspects of what happened this week was the attempt to suppress dissent. Whenever anyone tried to post anything which referred to either the Counting thread or the Postal Strike, it was deleted as quickly as the mods could get to it. Anyone who visited this Forum who did not know about what was going on would have been none the wiser. Perhaps that was the idea.
No, this thread was never deleted - it was on G&TT for the duration. What I had big big problems with was a new thread (often aggressive and containing personal attacks) being created every five minutes and the whole forum index being overrun...

Remember too that this forum is intended to be about, and for, Portobello. It's not here to see if folk can count ad nauseum!

Whatever. The thread which Wangi says was never deleted does not contain any references to the strike. It is a fact that references to the strike were deleted.

Here is a screengrab I took of one such deleted thread:

Now the 'silent majority' of people, who didn't know anything about the strike while it happened, can see the type of post which was being deleted. I don't see any 'agression' or 'personal attacks' in there, and don't recall any in any of the other threads which were deleted, but I hope if anything like that did happen then the people who did so would be censured. Although it is easy to make such claims when you've deleted the evidence.

From a personal point of view, I regret that the strike ended when it did. I still don't think that the people who run this site *get* what it was about. The resurrection of an old Dadaist idea (funnily enough) - The Playpen, invisible to the outside world, and containing what the moderators see fit to chuck in there, really isn't what it was all about. Rathbone and Ali have summed up what it was about very succinctly, in case you're still wondering, in the 2 posts above.

So in summary, I think we fucked it up. I wish we hadn't come back. I think that the minute we did, we became easy to ignore again. The only reason that a small concession (on their own terms) was made was because of the action taken, and the fact the forum was absolutely dead in the absence of the 12 or so posters who went on strike. They had to listen, basically, because there was very little to read for the 'silent majority' without us.

So for that reason, this is my last post. I've loved this forum for the last 2 years or so, but unless things do change, sorry, but I've had enough of it.

So long everybody. It's been great (mostly).

I've just read Foxy's post, in which she mentions a post from dada, probably containing the same screengrab as above, as being deleted. This underlines everything I've just said. I wonder if this post will be deleted too? And if so, I would like to know what forum rule I have broken

Admin: This post has been moderated to remove material already removed. Reposting material removed through moderation is unacceptable.

bellybabe · Post by **bellybabe** » 05 Aug 2007, 12:12

I do not have the time to respond fully to all of this right now, but I am trying to keep up and trying to give it all a fair hearing. However, until I do have time to reply to everyone's concerns, I would like to remind people that personal attacks are against the rules, and reposting material removed by mods/admin is not acceptable.

I'll get back to you all as soon as I can.

BB

ali · Post by **ali** » 05 Aug 2007, 12:33

bellybabe wrote:................ reposting material removed by mods/admin is not acceptable.

BB

Well, I would argue that it is perfectly valid when reposting screenshots in order to refute allegations from the mods of personal attacks and aggression.

Anyway, for whatever reason it has taken you until now to enter the debate it will be interesting to see whether you can defend the actions of Wangi and Marya over the last few days.
Since Poppy has made little comment and bearcub was against the deletion of the counting thread what you think about it may well be decisive in resolving this ridiculous dispute.
I certainly hope so.
Still, at least we've got rid of that little troublemaker Hatstand.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 05 Aug 2007, 12:39

ali - to be fair to wangi - whilst that image *is* completely innocent, the ones I suspect wangi is talking about made mention of Marya's camping trip, called Poppy "Poopy" and told the mods they were going to have a busy night if they were thinking of deleting everything to do with the strike.

ali · Post by **ali** » 05 Aug 2007, 12:46

Dadaist wrote:ali - to be fair to wangi - whilst that image *is* completely innocent, the ones I suspect wangi is talking about made mention of Marya's camping trip, called Poppy "Poopy" and told the mods they were going to have a busy night if they were thinking of deleting everything to do with the strike.

Fair enough, D.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 05 Aug 2007, 12:51

ali wrote:Well, I would argue that it is perfectly valid when reposting screenshots in order to refute allegations from the mods of personal attacks and aggression.

totally agree...black and white over hearsay every time

ali wrote:Anyway, for whatever reason it has taken you until now to enter the debate it will be interesting to see whether you can defend the actions of Wangi and Marya over the last few days.
Since Poppy has made little comment and bearcub was against the deletion of the counting thread what you think about it may well be decisive in resolving this ridiculous dispute.
I certainly hope so.

I think we deserve an explanation of how the management team agreed the action of deleting the original counting thread...was there a democatic vote? Are there moderating guidelines in the same way that we have to adhere to posting guidelines?

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 05 Aug 2007, 13:11

Nelson Hatstand wrote:

So in summary, I think we *** it up. I wish we hadn't come back.

Quite.
I was doubly disappointed to be honest. I thought there should have been some thought and discussion given to the play pen idea and whether to bring the strike to an end or not but what's done is done.

Admin and mods can do what they like it seems. They might as well move 95% of what's posted on G&TT into the boring thread over in the play pen as things have been pretty dull around here for sometime now.

But that's just my opinion.

Time for me to have another break too, I think.

Post by **wangi** » 05 Aug 2007, 13:58

foxy wrote:Censorship of this kind should only be used to remove anything that is against the rules of the forum and that is not the case here

Foxy, there is a complaints procedure - that's the correct way for people to air their grievances about a thread being deleted. A politicised "strike" and spamming the forum regarding it isn't.

Thanks/L

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 05 Aug 2007, 14:03

Sandra also said more... But, well I messed up and deleted it! - Wangi

This is meant to be a "fun" forum, there is enough hassle/stress in real life. I don't need it online.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 05 Aug 2007, 14:06

wangi wrote:
foxy wrote:Censorship of this kind should only be used to remove anything that is against the rules of the forum and that is not the case here
Foxy, there is a complaints procedure - that's the correct way for people to air their grievances about a thread being deleted. A politicised "strike" and spamming the forum regarding it isn't.

Thanks/L

Thanks Wangi, I am aware of the complaints procedure. Can you please define your use of the word spamming. Are you referring to posts such as mine?

Post by **wangi** » 05 Aug 2007, 14:15

No, I'm referring to the multiple threads regarding the "strike" and deletion which were posted to the G&TT forum.

Post by **wangi** » 05 Aug 2007, 14:20

Sandra wrote:This is meant to be a "fun" forum, there is enough hassle/stress in real life. I don't need it online.

Sandra, think of that from the point of view of the admins and mods too. A number of us have received "less than polite", and in some cases some very upsetting, correspondence about this. We don't need it online, real life supplies us with enough too.

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 05 Aug 2007, 17:11

Ah, memories....

Btw wangi, how did you manage to do this?

Post by **wangi** » 05 Aug 2007, 17:27

Argh, damn edit & reply buttons...

Of course, Sandra said more than that... Wonder if one of our keen screengrabbers has it saved for posterity? Otherwise, sorry Sandra!

L/

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 05 Aug 2007, 17:28

I know, thought Wangi was deliberately deleting my post

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 05 Aug 2007, 21:32

Nelson Hatstand wrote:....and the fact the forum was absolutely dead in the absence of the 12 or so posters who went on strike. They had to listen, basically, because there was very little to read for the 'silent majority' without us.

I agree with Nelson. Maybe we're a bunch of loud mouthed, egotistical, die hards who frighten off some quieter lurkers but on the whole we've had the same bunch of people keeping the forum going for a number of years now. It might well be that if the 'regulars' go some lurkers might start posting more - who knows? Personally though, I think this forum will suffer if we lose the likes of ecm, Nelson, Ali, Porty, POP, Dadaist etc. We really don't need to be babysat to the extent we have been lately. There was no need to delete the thread in the first place since it was good, clean, inoffensive fun and it wasn't doing anybody any harm. My life is nothing without you guys - please don't go

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 05 Aug 2007, 21:43

and me, I hope

Epykat · Post by **Epykat** » 05 Aug 2007, 21:46

Sandra wrote:and me, I hope

Definitely! And Bearcub! (I included you in the 'etc'

)

Sandra · Post by **Sandra** » 05 Aug 2007, 22:07

cool

when are you free to go to spooky church??

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 06 Aug 2007, 09:43

wangi wrote: there is a complaints procedure.... that's the correct way for people to air their grievances about a thread being deleted.

Actually, there is nothing in the complaints procedure to cover threads being deleted, or to take forward a complaint about the actions of the Moderators or Administrators. Perhaps there should be. (As things stand at the moment they would be investigating complaints about themselves, which is a nonsense.)

It was also nice to read Posting Guideline 1 again:
"You are free to debate and to disagree.", but only sometimes.........

Post by **wangi** » 06 Aug 2007, 10:47

rathbone wrote:It was also nice to read Posting Guideline 1 again:
"You are free to debate and to disagree.", but only sometimes.........

Nice bit of selective quoting there!

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 06 Aug 2007, 10:54

Fair cop!

"You are free to debate and to disagree, but in a manner that is respectful of the rights and feelings of others."

I don't think that it was particularly respectful of the rights and feelings of others to deny them the ability to enter into debate. Even those who were in agreement with your point of view (i.e. Bob Jefferson) had their comments deleted.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 06 Aug 2007, 15:18

rathbone wrote:
wangi wrote: there is a complaints procedure.... that's the correct way for people to air their grievances about a thread being deleted.
Actually, there is nothing in the complaints procedure to cover threads being deleted, or to take forward a complaint about the actions of the Moderators or Administrators. Perhaps there should be. (As things stand at the moment they would be investigating complaints about themselves, which is a nonsense.)

Wangi has responded to a similar question here

Hope this link is not in breach of the posting guidelines?

rathbone · Post by **rathbone** » 06 Aug 2007, 16:20

Thanks,

Wangi responded, but didn't actually address the issues.

Anyway, shouldn't that discussion be taking place here, and not on another Forum?

Bob Jefferson · Post by **Bob Jefferson** » 06 Aug 2007, 17:27

rathbone wrote:I don't think that it was particularly respectful of the rights and feelings of others to deny them the ability to enter into debate. Even those who were in agreement with your point of view (i.e. Bob Jefferson) had their comments deleted.

For the record, what I posted was the following responses to pms from Dadaist informing me of the strike:

From: Bob Jefferson
To: Dadaist
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:54 pm
Subject: Re: strike

Mat

I'm not always going to agree with the way the board is moderated but Maria has my 100% support. Making unpopular decisions is an inevitable consequence of being a mod and, whether I agree with individual decisons or not, I know that everything she does is, in her judgement, in the best interests of talkporty. And her judgement is almost always spot-on.

Cheers

Bob

From: Bob Jefferson
To: Dadaist
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:14 pm
Subject: Re: strike

Even if (for argument's sake) she got it wrong on this occasion, I don't feel that she should be condemned for a very rare misjudgement. Looks like my 'interesting' numbers thread has been deleted as well. I'm not exactly happy about that but I accept the decision. And the other mods should, in my view, be rallying round behind her, whether they were outvoted or not.

Let's save the grand gestures and theatrical flounces for something worth arguing about.

And before anyone replies, count to ten.