Question Time

[Skeely]

Regarding Scottish Independence, it seems to me that Scotland often defines itself as a country by its people's common antipathy towards its neighbour, England, rather than a sense of a united nation within our own borders. Last Friday, I was in a pub in Thistle Street and on the table was a printed leaflet one of the guys had found in the men's toilet. It was full of vitriol against 'the English' , contained the old 1970's claim that it is 'Scotland's oil', promoted violence against 'the English' and was illustrated with a para-military style picture of raised, crossed arms holding sub-machine guns. The group responsible had a Gaelic name which I can't recall, however, it is this ability to appeal to the lowest common denominator and lay all our woes at the feet of the Westminster Parliament that, for me, sums up the SNP.

The kind of racism you describe is really nasty, and it is a shame that you and many others feel this sums up the SNP. I'm not a member, but generally vote for them. I spent 6 great years living in the deep south, Mrs Skeely is English, as are many of my friends. I certainly hope I'm not motivated by racism, and I think that independence can only be good for Anglo-Scots relationships.

even if the SNP do gain the votes needed to form the governing party in Scotland at the next elections - then whom shall we blame for our woes?

You complain (with some justification) that we tend to define ourselves by our antipathy to England. Surely losing the chip on the shoulder would a good thing?

[Porty]

Beutifully put Marya.

I've observed that in today's Scotland we have a substanial (and I mean possibly 15% of the population) that are heart lazy, and they are convinced that someone owes them a living. Thay jump on the anti-english bandwagon, cos its better than working. They would basically follow any cause that gave a chance of doing nothing.

[Porty]

.................... I guess we differ on how big the gamble is.

It is a gamble....but I'll take that rather than get dragged in to an illegal war again.

Are you saying that if England, Wales and Northern Ireland agreed to support the USA invasion of Iraq, the Scottish people would have stood alone against it? On what basis do you make that assertion? Alex Salmond et al have created the delusion that Scotland would have deferred from invading Iraq ,it is based in fantasy.

Think you must have missed the above, ali old boy.

[Porty]

Don't know what you're getting at........??? Do you want to rephrase that so it makes sense?

I meant that we are currently part of the 5th stongest world economy. I'm asking you, should we become managed by SNP, in what position do you think we would end up?

I'm not sure what question I avoided. If it was the one about what counrty in the developed world has failed to benefit from independence, then I'm afraid I can't think of an example whether the country benefited or not.

[Maria]

You complain (with some justification) that we tend to define ourselves by our antipathy to England. Surely losing the chip on the shoulder would a good thing?

I'm sure it would Skeely, but Independence seems a drastic solution ; a bit like amputation to remove a wart.
Anyway, I reckon, as the old joke goes, that most SNP supporters are pretty well balanced - they have a chip on both shoulders...

[ali]

Beutifully put Marya.

I've observed that in today's Scotland we have a substanial (and I mean possibly 15% of the population) that are heart lazy, and they are convinced that someone owes them a living. Thay jump on the anti-english bandwagon, cos its better than working. They would basically follow any cause that gave a chance of doing nothing.

.......a new low. That's the stupidest argument from you yet. So people vote SNP because they will get a chance to do nothing. Even you don't believe that. Its just another cheap shot.

Are you saying that our percentage of the feckless is greater than in other countries? How do you know?
Do you believe Scotland is unique in that?
Maybe its because we are constantly told that we are subsidised by the rest of the UK? Its bound to make you feel worthless if everything you hear from UK politicians is that you are a liability to them.

I don't believe it and neither do many other people.

How about if your kids are growing up in some of the worst social conditions in Western Europe where the average male dies before or just after retiral age?

How many of the people you were at school with have ended up living and working outside Scotland? I grew up in the sixties and every other month one of my classmates and his family left for Australia or Canada. Why can't Scotland provide enough opportunity for its people?

I believe that its because the big decisions in the UK are taken with a disregard for Scotland. Remember Eddie George when he said that high interest rates were "a price worth paying" - necessary to keep the economy of the south east of England from overheating. Those same interest rates were not what Scotland needed.

Noiw if you are going to debate this seriously I will continue but if you are going to continually resort to the kind of nonsense you spouted above then forget it. Your contempt for those in society who don't have your social skills, education, insight or lifestyle doesn't reflect well on you.

[ali]

With all Scotland's problems we are still a key part of what is the 5th or 6th strongest and best performing economy in the world.

If we are a key part then why do we have all these problems??

[ali]

I used to really like Alex Salmond til I found out what he was like.

My mate does lights at a venue and was mic-ing up Alex and giving him his cue to go on.

"Is there water on the podium?" says Alex

My friend didn't know.

"There'd better be" says Alex

What's your point?
Why didn't your mate know if there was water?
Who's job was it?
Why should Eck have to go on to a public podium without water ?
Are you objecting to his tone?
Did your mate feel threatened?
Do you think he was rude to expect a glass of water to be provided?

Personally I admire Eck's attention to detail, his vision and his managerial skills - he had thought ahead about the need for water, identified someone who may or may not have been responsible and left them in no doubt that the consequences of the non-provision of that water might be unpleasant - of course I would also imagine that Mr Salmond delivered the "There'd better be!" line with a twinkle in his eye and a smile on his lips, didn't he.

If you really believe that you "found out what he was like" through this story then you should think again. It was a nice try at character assassination all wrapped up in a neat little anecdote, Dada. Better luck next time.

No, I was just being honest about how my opinion of him changed after my mate related how rude he was to him.

So if I told you a story about how Alex helped an old lady across the road you would then think what a swell guy he is? That fickle huh?

[ali]

Regarding Scottish Independence, it seems to me that Scotland often defines itself as a country by its people's common antipathy towards its neighbour, England, rather than a sense of a united nation within our own borders.

Well, when you're in bed with an elephant............
And we don't have that sense of being united because Scotland has never been considered as an equal partner in the Union.

Last Friday, I was in a pub in Thistle Street and on the table was a printed leaflet one of the guys had found in the men's toilet. It was full of vitriol against 'the English' , contained the old 1970's claim that it is 'Scotland's oil', promoted violence against 'the English' and was illustrated with a paramilitary style picture of raised, crossed arms holding sub-machine guns. The group responsible had a Gaelic name which I can't recall, however, it is this ability to appeal to the lowest common denominator and lay all our woes at the feet of the Westminster Parliament that, for me, sums up the SNP.

You have absolutely no evidence that this leaflet had anything to do with the SNP but you use it to "sum up" the SNP.

If the SNP get their way and gain an Independent Scotland - though it seems unlikely as Alex Salmond has recently back pedalled on holding a referendum on Independence, even if the SNP do gain the votes needed to form the governing party in Scotland at the next elections - then whom shall we blame for our woes?

Will Edinburgers blame Weegies for costing the Scottish Health Service too much because of their unhealthy lifestyles? Will we be happy to subsidise the travel and work of the teuchtars in the Western Isles because they choose to live in a sparsely populated area out-with the central belt? Will it become compulsory to speak Gaelic and learn Scottish Country dancing? Will Celtic and Rangers fans bury the sectarian hatchet and unite in a shiny new Republic of Scotland? Will it even be a Republic?

We blame someone else because we don't have a sense of control or ownership of the important political tools which can make a difference.

Will Ali stop being the forum grump?

Not while you and Porty are still around , M.

[Maria]

And we don't have that sense of being united because Scotland has never been considered as an equal partner in the Union.

That implies that Scotland was a united nation, prior to the act of Union and I'd refute that Ali.

You have absolutely no evidence that this leaflet had anything to do with the SNP but you use it to "sum up" the SNP.

I realise that most SNP supporters are not that rabid or racist Ali, but you cannot deny that there is a fringe element who are. The leaflet did not say who was responsible for printing and distribution (little wonder as it was clearly racist and an incitement to violence) but the sentiments it expressed were designed to appeal to those who think with their hearts and not their minds. My argument was that Sturgeon, Salmond and their ilk often rely on this same tactic - the 'Braveheart' factor.

We blame someone else because we don't have a sense of control or ownership of the important political tools which can make a difference.

Why do you think Alex Salmond back tracked on his promise of an immediate referendum Ali? Could it be that he suspects that many of his 'supporters' don't really have the stomach for Independence? Let's face it, it is very easy to be a party in opposition, which is what the SNP do best.

Will Ali stop being the forum grump?

Not while you and Porty are still around , M.

Don't know about Porty but I think I've got a good few years left in me yet.

[Skeely]

The group responsible had a Gaelic name which I can't recall

The leaflet did not say who was responsible for printing and distribution

Sounds like this lot.

[Maria]

The group responsible had a Gaelic name which I can't recall

The leaflet did not say who was responsible for printing and distribution

Sounds like this lot.

Yep, it was them Skeely.

[ali]

And we don't have that sense of being united because Scotland has never been considered as an equal partner in the Union.

That implies that Scotland was a united nation, prior to the act of Union and I'd refute that Ali.

It doesn't imply any such thing - but given the levels of political and social development of the time pre union Scotland was a well developed trading nation - its merchants, scholars and soldiers were respected and well known throughout europe. Why do you think the Treaty of Union was so despised and opposed by the vast majority of the Scots people?

You have absolutely no evidence that this leaflet had anything to do with the SNP but you use it to "sum up" the SNP.

I realise that most SNP supporters are not that rabid or racist Ali, but you cannot deny that there is a fringe element who are. The leaflet did not say who was responsible for printing and distribution (little wonder as it was clearly racist and an incitement to violence) but the sentiments it expressed were designed to appeal to those who think with their hearts and not their minds. My argument was that Sturgeon, Salmond and their ilk often rely on this same tactic - the 'Braveheart' factor.

"most" supporters?? "not that" rabid or racist ?? - your at it again M - just like yer pal Porty with your smears and innuendos. Its another cheap shot and nasty and you shouldn't stoop so low. Argue the point without trying to give the impression that all nationalists are some kind of racist nazis. You know thats not true so why do you hint at it?

The SNP has no truck with the sort of ethnic nationalism which is condemned at every opportunity. Their philosophy is one of a benign civic nationalism - all the residents of Scotland will become citizens of an independent Scotland regardless of creed or colour - (we've even agreed special terms for Nelson H).

We blame someone else because we don't have a sense of control or ownership of the important political tools which can make a difference.

Why do you think Alex Salmond back tracked on his promise of an immediate referendum Ali? Could it be that he suspects that many of his 'supporters' don't really have the stomach for Independence? Let's face it, it is very easy to be a party in opposition, which is what the SNP do best.

If there has been a shift in Salmond's position it is to do with the realities of forming an administration at Holyrood not because of your imagined lack of his supporters conviction.

And remember that all opposition parties become governments one day (it happened to Labour once) - The Unionist parties have to win every election from now on - the SNP just have to win one. Its coming M and you'd better get used to the idea - the Greens, the SSP, over 80% of LIb Dem members and many, many Labour Party supporters favour independence - the SNP may not even be the party to get there - its a broad coalition and one day it will deliver.

[bearcub]

- the Greens, the SSP, over 80% of LIb Dem members and many, many Labour Party supporters favour independence -

I've even heard it suggested by some of their supporters that the Scottish Conservatives and Unionist party would benefit, and get more support, by dropping the Unionist bit and going down the road of a Scottish Conservative party that backs independence. If even some of their supporters are muttering this, then there is a groundswell change in opinion starting to happen........and I believe it will, eventually, lead to Scotland leaving the UK. Oh...and even when this happens, believe it or not...we'll all still be British, as the islands as a whole are Britain, so you can leave the UK, but it's a bit harder to leave the island. Bit like Swedish/Norwegian/Danish people are those first, but still Scandinavian!

I actually don't think it will be the SNP that deliver Scottish independence, but a change in attitude of the other parties. They can't ignore for ever that, although only 30% or so vote SNP, over 50% want Independence.....

[Maria]

the levels of political and social development of the time pre union Scotland was a well developed trading nation - its merchants, scholars and soldiers were respected and well known throughout europe.

That doesn't mean that it was some sort of egalitarian utopia Ali. Just look at some of the historical wheeling and dealing that had the clans at each other throats.

"most" supporters?? "not that" rabid or racist ?? - your at it again M - just like yer pal Porty with your smears and innuendos. Its another cheap shot and nasty and you shouldn't stoop so low. Argue the point without trying to give the impression that all nationalists are some kind of racist nazis. You know thats not true so why do you hint at it?

I stated that it was a 'fringe element' who were ignorant racists Ali. Do you deny that such an element exists?

Do you deny that the SNP use the 'Braveheart' factor to win votes? They leafleted outside cinemas for heaven's sake and used Mel Gibson's likeness on campaign leaflets.

If there has been a shift in Salmond's position it is to do with the realities of forming an administration at Holyrood not because of your imagined lack of his supporters conviction.

How difficult is it to name a cabinet and organise a referendum?

Its coming M and you'd better get used to the idea

If it does I'll look forward to the great rewards that you tell me lie in wait Ali, but I won't be holding my breath.





edit:removed unnecessary quote

[bearcub]

then whom shall we blame for our woes?

Europe? Bit like a lot of people in the UK already do, and most of it stoked up by a rabid tabloid press, who ironically don't want Scotland to leave their Union....nothing new in blaming your bigger neighbour for your woes. And certainly not something that can be said to be invented and laid solely at the feet of the SNP - I've heard as many Labour/Tory/Lib-Dem supporters spout anti-English diatribe as I have SNP followers! It's not right, it does happen, but it's not the reasoning behind most people's backing for Independence.

Scotland is like the grown-up adult that still lives at home because it's safe, risks are minimized, don't have to make (and bear the consequences of) any major decisions. If times are tough, and life in the big world feels too much, can always head home to be cossetted, looked after and slipped a few quid to get by on. Mother UK doesn't like the idea of you leaving home either, it's a bad world out there and you might get hurt - and, after all, what am I going to do without you there to help me.

Funny enough, most people when they leave home still talk to the family, and yes, even visit them sometimes. And yes, they still have a relationship, as you can't take that away, but this time it's evolved naturally to an adult-adult relationship, not an adult-child one.....

[Dadaist]

What's your point?
Why didn't your mate know if there was water?
Who's job was it?
Why should Eck have to go on to a public podium without water ?
Are you objecting to his tone?
Did your mate feel threatened?
Do you think he was rude to expect a glass of water to be provided?

Personally I admire Eck's attention to detail, his vision and his managerial skills - he had thought ahead about the need for water, identified someone who may or may not have been responsible and left them in no doubt that the consequences of the non-provision of that water might be unpleasant - of course I would also imagine that Mr Salmond delivered the "There'd better be!" line with a twinkle in his eye and a smile on his lips, didn't he.

If you really believe that you "found out what he was like" through this story then you should think again. It was a nice try at character assassination all wrapped up in a neat little anecdote, Dada. Better luck next time.

No, I was just being honest about how my opinion of him changed after my mate related how rude he was to him.

So if I told you a story about how Alex helped an old lady across the road you would then think what a swell guy he is? That fickle huh?

I guess it would depend on whether he was doing it with tv cameras present. If having opinions of people which are based on what they do as well as what they say makes me fickle then so be it.

[kipling]

Hiya

Long time lurker, first time caller, so to speak...

Beutifully put Marya.

I've observed that in today's Scotland we have a substanial (and I mean possibly 15% of the population) that are heart lazy, and they are convinced that someone owes them a living. Thay jump on the anti-english bandwagon, cos its better than working. They would basically follow any cause that gave a chance of doing nothing.

This is so true. I’d say “possibly 15%â€

[Porty]

Are you saying that our percentage of the feckless is greater than in other countries? How do you know?.

No

Do you believe Scotland is unique in that? .

No

Maybe its because we are constantly told that we are subsidised by the rest of the UK? .

I serioulsy doubt it when's the last time you had a crisis about being subsidised. I don't believe most people even think about it. Why are we subsidised?

Its bound to make you feel worthless if everything you hear from UK politicians is that you are a liability to them. .

]I don't feel worthless and I don't think many others do, with the possible exception of the worthless. I also don't get your point about dignity, I have dignity and I've obsserved it in many other Scottish people.

Noiw if you are going to debate this seriously I will continue but if you are going to continually resort to the kind of nonsense you spouted above then forget it. Your contempt for those in society who don't have your social skills, education, insight or lifestyle doesn't reflect well on you.

Excuse me,I don't have contempt for anyone. I pointed out that there is a core of people in Scotland ( ihad been drinking and made the 15% up,sorry) who are heart lazy and think the world owes them a living. Scotland is not unique in this regard. Gilo asked why not make Scotland a better place to live. I would say that for the majority it can't get much better than it is at the moment and we are working to improve the lot for others. We still have serious socail problems but independence won't cure them. Many of our problems are endemic.

[Porty]

Ali, you haven't addressed my point about Scotland not going to war in Iraq had we been independent. Alex Salmond trumpets this like its a fact. Which is at best disingenous. Labour were still the biggest party in Scotland at the last general election, which you will recall was after the invasion of Iraq. Given all of our British history, some of which is recent I could not see Scotland standing by whilst England went to War. Could you?

Marya is spot one with her "hearts not minds" analogy and also with the "braveheart" factor.

Welcome Kipling, I had not read your post when I divulged that i had made the 15% up. So I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not but in any case i apologise for making it up. Good point about benefit fraud but I can't see Ali agreeing.

[kipling]

I used to really like Alex Salmond til I found out what he was like.

My mate does lights at a venue and was mic-ing up Alex and giving him his cue to go on.

"Is there water on the podium?" says Alex

My friend didn't know.

"There'd better be" says Alex

My mate once met that Jim Bowen off of Bullseye, and said he was awful nice. Based on this information alone, he'd get my vote anytime…

[Dadaist]

I used to really like Alex Salmond til I found out what he was like.

My mate does lights at a venue and was mic-ing up Alex and giving him his cue to go on.

"Is there water on the podium?" says Alex

My friend didn't know.

"There'd better be" says Alex

My mate once met that Jim Bowen off of Bullseye, and said he was awful nice. Based on this information alone, he'd get my vote anytime…

Vote For Bully - Don't Listen to Tony!

[Skeely]

Ali, you haven't addressed my point about Scotland not going to war in Iraq had we been independent. Alex Salmond trumpets this like its a fact. Which is at best disingenous. Labour were still the biggest party in Scotland at the last general election, which you will recall was after the invasion of Iraq. Given all of our British history, some of which is recent I could not see Scotland standing by whilst England went to War. Could you?

I'll have a go. According to the Scotsman, around half of Scottish back-benchers voted against the war in 2003. Surely this figure would have been higher if most weren't subject to the New Labour whip?

[Porty]

Ali, you haven't addressed my point about Scotland not going to war in Iraq had we been independent. Alex Salmond trumpets this like its a fact. Which is at best disingenous. Labour were still the biggest party in Scotland at the last general election, which you will recall was after the invasion of Iraq. Given all of our British history, some of which is recent I could not see Scotland standing by whilst England went to War. Could you?

I'll have a go. According to the Scotsman, around half of Scottish back-benchers voted against the war in 2003. Surely this figure would have been higher if most weren't subject to the New Labour whip?

Its not like for like.Given all that our countries have been through and the bond that we have. There is a special relationship and independent or not Scotland would support England.

[seanie]

Regardless of what they were doing?

I think not.

[Porty]

I accept the caveat, we would not support under any circumstance. I contend that had we been independent at the time that the decision was taken to invade Iraq then I believe (don't know) that we would have supported England. My point is that Salmond and the SNP can't claim that it is fait accompli that we would not have been dragged into the war.

[Porty]

I actually don't think it will be the SNP that deliver Scottish independence, but a change in attitude of the other parties.

I think there is some merit in this. I can't see it going as far as independence but I do envisage deeper devolvement. The jury is out on whether the Scottish people think the parliament has been a success. Its early days and far too early to go for a referndum, in fact it could screw up the future for further devolvement.

They can't ignore for ever that, although only 30% or so vote SNP, over 50% want Independence.....

I don't believe the 50% figure. What's your source?

[seanie]

Well I'm not sure what would've happened but I suspect an independent Scotland would've probably sided with the bulk of Europe and given Iraq a bodyswerve.

That's not because there aren't close bonds and ties with England; obviously there are. But it wasn't, by any rational stretch of the imagination, an issue concerning a threat to England. It was a war conducted by a Prime Minister on the basis that the US should be supported, pretty much regardless of what they were actually doing and with little thought to the consequences, that was hugely opposed in Engalnd itself.

In those circumstance, just because some delusional, self-righteous, half-wit with a big smile and an artificial majority decides to chummy up to the most powerful imbecile on the face of the planet and unleash chaos, I don't see why an independent Scotland would necessarily have gone along with it.

[ali]

Its not like for like.Given all that our countries have been through and the bond that we have. There is a special relationship and independent or not Scotland would support England.

I don't know what your evidence is for this statement. Had you been drinking again and just made it up?

If there is a special relationship are you suggesting that it is similar to the UK's "special relationship" with the United States? I have never been able to understand just what the UK gets out of this "special realationship" - apart from being ignored whenever US interests are paramount.

You don't know (and neither do I ) just how a parliament in an independent Scotland would vote in any particular situation.

[ali]

.................................. But it wasn't, by any rational stretch of the imagination, an issue concerning a threat to England. It was a war conducted by a Prime Minister on the basis that the US should be supported, pretty much regardless of what they were actually doing and with little thought to the consequences, that was hugely opposed in Engalnd itself.

In those circumstance, just because some delusional, self-righteous, half-wit with a big smile and an artificial majority decides to chummy up to the most powerful imbecile on the face of the planet and unleash chaos, I don't see why an independent Scotland would necessarily have gone along with it.

Beautifully put, Seanie.

[Porty]

If there is a special relationship are you suggesting .

You deny there is a special relationship between Scotland and England?

that it is similar to the UK's "special relationship" with the United States? .

Its much stronger than that, 300 years of joint government, cross border families, fought in wars shoulder to shoulder., ecomonic partnership, you name it

I have never been able to understand just what the UK gets out of this "special realationship" -
.

I'm not really surprised by your lacjk of understanding. Aren't you the one that thinks that we Scottish people are "bound to feel worthless" and that we have no dignity? I don't even recognise the way you describe the country we live in.

[Dadaist]

Talking of things scone, I had a really nice one today at Valvona & Crolla - it was a fruit scone, and I took it with some very pale white Italian butter and runny jam. Delicious.

[Nelson Hatstand]

Their philosophy is one of a benign civic nationalism - all the residents of Scotland will become citizens of an independent Scotland regardless of creed or colour - (we've even agreed special terms for Nelson H).

Hey! I'm quarter scotch I'll have you know!

[Porty]

You don't know (and neither do I ) just how a parliament in an independent Scotland would vote in any particular situation.

Agreed, however its not you or I that's trumpeting the foregone conclusion, its Alex Salmond.

[ali]

You deny there is a special relationship between Scotland and England

there is a relationship, I don't know about special.

that it is similar to the UK's "special relationship" with the United States?

Its much stronger than that, 300 years of joint government, cross border families, fought in wars shoulder to shoulder., ecomonic partnership, you name it

all things must pass

I have never been able to understand just what the UK gets out of this "special relationship" - .

I'm not really surprised by your lacjk of understanding. Aren't you the one that thinks that we Scottish people are "bound to feel worthless" and that we have no dignity? I don't even recognise the way you describe the country we live in.

I was talking about your so called "core of people in Scotland .......................................... who are heart lazy and think the world owes them a living"

For those people, who you have apparently written off, it must be galling to be continually told that they are a liability to you and those decent hardworking tax payers like you.

In yesterday's Herald there was a preview of a report in to poverty in Scotland to be released later this week which blows holes in your cozy theory that it is simply the workshy and lazy who live in poverty in Scotland. http://www.sundayherald.com/analysis/an ... 44.0.0.php