New Schools Proposal - The Wilder Issues

[Porty]

I'm not sure where this newly invented "Portobello Park" is either . As long as I've been here we've never had a "Portobello Park" - the Council just made it up.

I agree with the first bit, apparently John Williamson's customers kept asking where Portobello park is? I hadn't heard of it either but I thought it was FOPA that made it up.

In any case, if it was the council that made itr up, is that not one of the things they are supposed to do?

[Epykat]

I'm not sure where this newly invented "Portobello Park" is either . As long as I've been here we've never had a "Portobello Park" - the Council just made it up.

I agree with the first bit, apparently John Williamson's customers kept asking where Portobello park is? I hadn't heard of it either but I thought it was FOPA that made it up.

In any case, if it was the council that made itr up, is that not one of the things they are supposed to do?

FOPA? Or did you mean faux pas?

[Porty]

FOPA? Or did you mean faux pas?

FOPA by name...............

[Dadaist]

I've not said anything about countries and continents as far as I can remember - I'm just reacting to reading what seanie and Bob have had to say about "friends and family" and "grannies, aunties etc".

I appreciate that but Bob and Seanie's comments related to the friends,families aunties etc post by Portygreenkeeper on the American Golfers site, I'm sure Bob ad Seanie didn't seek to devalue the views of friends and faimily etc here in Portobello. Its just that you took it out of context and gave it a whole ne connotation.

I think that if comments relate to another post, and especially to one on another website, one should use quotation marks, footnotes and/or annotation in order to avoid the casual reader mistaking a reference for an original quote.

That way, the proper context can be set for, say, view devaluation to be taken out of.

[seanie]

The casual reader would have to look at the links provided for my post to make any sense at all. And in doing so should be able to understand the context of the comment I was reiterating.

[Porty]

I think that if comments relate to another post, and especially to one on another website, one should use quotation marks, footnotes and/or annotation in order to avoid the casual reader mistaking a reference for an original quote.

There was a link provded to the thread in question and the context was important. It was the proper contect

The problem here is you leapt in prior to availing yourself of all of the facts. Your start off point was to take Seanie and Bob to task for apparent double standards.

[Dadaist]

Anyone is welcome to assume or insist that their readers follow and read every link provided, and also that they will therefore be able to add their own virtual quotation marks to text which follows.

Arguably, it is a mistake to assume this and invalid to insist upon it.

[Dadaist]

Hesitate before denigrate may be a good bit of advice

I just can't get Bellybabe's "Pot's & Kettles" out of my mind for some reason.

[Porty]

599 online signatures and 2000 on paper.
and you are daring to say that the people of Portobello do not understand. They do understand and they have voted with their feet.

Portobello you say?

see ya on the real forum

Do you mean the Brazilian or the American one?

[Dadaist]

People from Brazil have signed the PPAG paper petition?

[Porty]

People from Brazil have signed the PPAG paper petition?

They may well have done. I believe there's more than a few cartoon characters on it too.

[Dadaist]

How many, out of the 2599, do you think are bona fide local residents (or genuine ex-pats) ?

[Porty]

I don't know but they got what they wanted in any case and good luck to them.

[Porty]

Just for Dadaist from the American Golfers website all the gory details.

Hi, our local golf course and park, (Portobello Park), are about to be built on by our local Council, unless we gather enough support to stop them doing so. Portobello golf course has a long history and is very child friendly. It is at the heart of the local community and had 30,000 Tee off times last year; which were all used. The park is a beautiful green space which is used regularly not only by golfers but many people in the community for sport and leisure activities.

I started a website http://www.portygreenkeepers.org.uk with a petition online to help us save the park.

Could you please have a look at the site and if you like, sign the petition to try to force the council to re-think its somewhat drastic strategy.

Kind regards

portygreenkeeper

Where are you located?

Where are you located?

Portobello in Edinburgh, Scotland.

I just signed the petition. Even though I'm in the USA, this is a worthy cause. Future generations need green places where they can play, and breathe some fresh air. The petition doesn't discriminate by location, so please help porty out and sign the petition!

Thankyou thenexttiger we need all the help we can get

I feel your pain from across the pond. I started playing golf this summer at a newbe friendly course in Lebanon PA USA named South Hills. Its a nice 9 holer with three sets of tees so when you play 18 it is a different 9 holes. Well its on the land owned by the local veterns hospital and they whant to lease the land to developers.(those bast*rds) There's a meeting Spt. 6th I will be there. Wish I could be there for you. Say hi to my uncle Clive. God Save The Queen God Bless The USA

Thanks very much, we need as many signatures as possible, please tell your friends. Here are some recent photographs of some of the park and some members celebrating the 150th Anniversary.

http://www.portygreenkeepers.org.uk/gallery.html

Thanks for all your help

It looks like a wonderful course. I'd love to play it someday myself. I keep trying to convince my wife that we should save our pennies to take a trip to Scottland, but she tells me that she knows that the only reason that I want to go there is to golf. And I respond that its not the only reason, just the best reason.

How many people have signed your petition?

just over 2000 on paper and about 564 online. We could do with more though, please feel free to sign



thanks?

How is the petition doing?

Everyone should get involved in this petition. It will take a mere moment of your time, and could preserve this course for years to come. You'd all want the same favor returned if your course were endangered.

595 Total Signatures


who will be 600



please sign

regards
Porty
Thanks

Um, no need to shout Porty!

Hopefully you're past 600 by now. Do you have a deadline for your petition (such as a council meeting where certain decisions will be made) or will you keep going until you reach a certain number of signatures (such as 1,000)?

oops sorry about the shouting. Its an ongoing process, the next meeting is soon, however the Council have decided not to let us know what is happening until after the May elections. I wonder why?

Still time to get the petition signed by your grannies, aunties, etc etc

[Dadaist]

Exemplary. Your time and effort will be appreciated long after golf as a pastime has ceased to exist.

[Porty]

I do get the feeling that these Yanks are well-informed about the debate. And who is uncle Clive? Could it be our very own Clive fi Shapes?

God Bless America and the Queen.

[Dadaist]

So - once xenophobia/racism have been removed as factors, what is the difference between someone in Linlithgow who is an ex-pat Portobello resident signing an E-petition to build the school on the golf course, and someone from Texas who is a golfer signing an E-petition to keep the golf course where it is?

[Bob Jefferson]

I would say that one is a little more ridiculous than the other, but neither should have a say in the consultation. And let's not forget that the only statutory consultation is with the parents.

[Porty]

There are a number of differences, quite a lot actually. One would be that the Linlithgower was aware of the educational needs of Portobello's children, the Texan doesn't even know its a factor.

Apart from that the Petition is not even to "keep the golf course where it is".

[Dadaist]

There are a number of differences, quite a lot actually. One would be that the Linlithgower was aware of the educational needs of Portobello's children, the Texan doesn't even know its a factor.

Apart from that the Petition is not even to "keep the golf course where it is".

Bob would like to disagree with you.

[Porty]

There are a number of differences, quite a lot actually. One would be that the Linlithgower was aware of the educational needs of Portobello's children, the Texan doesn't even know its a factor.

Apart from that the Petition is not even to "keep the golf course where it is".

Bob would like to disagree with you.

Not that I can see.

[Dadaist]

In my opinion, there's a difference between "a number of differences, quite a lot actually" and "one is a little more ridiculous than the other".

You could even say it looked like one of you was saying that both should be discounted but the other was saying that only one should be discounted.

If you agree with Bob, does this mean you think the Linlithgow ex-pat should have their valuable opinion, which was informed by living amongst us and having a knowledge of our children's educational needs, discounted?

[Porty]

If you agree with Bob, does this mean you think the Linlithgow ex-pat should have their valuable opinion, which was informed by living amongst us and having a knowledge of our children's educational needs, discounted?

Mr or Mrs Lilinthgow isn't getting consulted just like Mr or Mrs Texan. Its more of a question of relevance than value.

As for differences? Don't think Bob gave us a list of his percieved differences but then neither did I. You may have noticed in the recent EN article with photo of Portyman that the petitioners mentioned by Porkyman were the Texans. The inference being; the futher away people are the more that they care and the more valuable their opinion is. Which is of course the exact opposite of the truth.

We now have prime-facie evidence that support from Americans has been recruited by divulging only part of the story. Ignorance is a friend to PPAG or least they think it is.

[Bob Jefferson]

In my opinion, there's a difference between "a number of differences, quite a lot actually" and "one is a little more ridiculous than the other".

Sorry, perhaps my sarcasm got lost in hyperspace. To clarify, I think the views of the ex-pat from Linlithgow who at least knows some of the background to this issue carry considerably more weight than the views of someone from Texas, for example, who knows little or nothing. However, I don't think either view should be given any weight as far as the consultation goes. Frankly, I think the value of this type of petition is very limited and the fact that the PPAG petition has considerably more signatures than the PFANS one won't make a jot of difference.

[seanie]

The casual reader would have to look at the links provided for my post to make any sense at all.

Meaning you gave no thought to the volatile nature of links - whatever it was you pointed to could be removed or changed.

They still work for me.

Did you not bother looking at them yourself?

I think I prefer it when you tell us about minimum school footprint sizes and stuff - you've produced some excellent information over the course of this debate and I feel that you cheapen those posts (which took a lot of your time and effort) by joining in with the likes of Bob in a bit of PPAG-bashing.

Negative campaigning is not your forte.

Staying on topic isn't yours.

But then denigrating the personal abilities of other posters may be more fun.



Anyway I wasn’t trying to make a big point. I posted what I posted because I found it amusing.

I’ve no doubt that some PFANs supporters will have tapped up every friend, relative, work colleague and casual acquaintance they can think of to sign their petition. I’ve not because of my own attitude to petitions but it’s the kinda thing you’d expect.

What I found funny was the juxtaposition between the apparent concern that the identity of respondents to the consultation be checked to ensure they live within the catchment, with the simultaneous touting for petition signatures from people on another continent.

And their Grannies.

OK. It’s not rip roaringly funny I grant you.

But it gave me a little chuckle.

My Googling’s also opened up a whole new world I was previously unaware of.

Community action and interest groups across the country, even the world, reaching out to one another across the internet and shyly asking…

“Will you sign mine if I sign yours?â€

[seanie]

So - once xenophobia/racism have been removed as factors...?

And could you explain how racism has suddenly entered the equation?

[Dadaist]

If you agree with Bob, does this mean you think the Linlithgow ex-pat should have their valuable opinion, which was informed by living amongst us and having a knowledge of our children's educational needs, discounted?

Mr or Mrs Lilinthgow isn't getting consulted just like Mr or Mrs Texan. Its more of a question of relevance than value.

Bob said neither should have a say in the consultation. Do you agree?

[Dadaist]

So - once xenophobia/racism have been removed as factors...?

And could you explain how racism has suddenly entered the equation?

Yes - I used the word in a question.

[Dadaist]

The casual reader would have to look at the links provided for my post to make any sense at all.

Meaning you gave no thought to the volatile nature of links - whatever it was you pointed to could be removed or changed.

They still work for me.

Did you not bother looking at them yourself?

Some people may bother (I did) and others may not.

I said "could" and not "are". That they "still" work for you does not mean that in either a millisecond or a millennium your post would not "make any sense at all".

[Dadaist]

Porty - also :

If you were an independent consultant and were given the job of making a summary of the various groups/bodies involved in and/or commenting on the consultation, is this the list you would come up with?

and from further back

Bob said neither (Texas & Linlithgow signatories) should have a say in the consultation. Do you agree?

[seanie]

So - once xenophobia/racism have been removed as factors...?

And could you explain how racism has suddenly entered the equation?

Yes - I used the word in a question.

But why?

You seem to be suggesting that anyone who thinks that the views of Texan golfers should be given less weight than others rather closer to home must be motivated by xenophobia or racism.

Well I supose xenophobia could be a possible motivation. But racism?

Are Texans a race?

In any event it seems mighty strange to think those the only two possible factors. Tell me Dadaist, you expressed before the possibility of a referendum to decide the issue.

Did you have in mind a global vote?

It would have to be really. Because disenfranchising any Texan golfers would be xenophobic or racist.

Wouldn't it?

[Porty]

Porty - also :

If you were an independent consultant and were given the job of making a summary of the various groups/bodies involved in and/or commenting on the consultation, is this the list you would come up with?

Hard to say. Although. I certainly wouldn't be refuting the facts.

Bob said neither (Texas & Linlithgow signatories) should have a say in the consultation. Do you agree?

I understand the legalities of the consultation and accept them.

And on the Balance Sheet. Groups should be listed as groups or as sub-groups if their views are made known. Hence St Johns has no sub-groups. I am conscious of this and would dearly love to know what the sub-groups thought. Individuals are listed as individuals. NEUTRAL was created to sate your previous request. I did not consider listing YET TO DECLARE as either liabilities or assets, I was meticulous about leaving opinion aside.

Furthermore, NEUTRAL and YET TO DECLARE do not form part of the statuatory Balance Sheet this is delineated by smaller case and horizontal listing.

[Dadaist]

And could you explain how racism has suddenly entered the equation?

Yes - I used the word in a question.

But why?

You seem to be suggesting that anyone who thinks that the views of Texan golfers should be given less weight than others rather closer to home must be motivated by xenophobia or racism.

Well I supose xenophobia could be a possible motivation. But racism?

Are Texans a race?

In any event it seems mighty strange to think those the only two possible factors. Tell me Dadaist, you expressed before the possibility of a referendum to decide the issue.

Did you have in mind a global vote?

It would have to be really. Because disenfranchising any Texan golfers would be xenophobic or racist.

Wouldn't it?

I was making a fuzzy distinction between racists and xenophobes because I wasn't interested in talking to either, nor wanting to spend time finding out who was suffering from which and in what proportion(s).

I guess there must be a difference between having a say and making a decision. People over the world protest about things which aren't in their countries, and try to apply pressure - and this is accepted behaviour. They are judged to have overstepped the mark though if they try and influence votes elsewhere - like when the Guardian (?) tried to step in during an American election and got given short shrift.

You couldn't disenfranchise Texan "voters" from a referendum here - they were never in the running to be enfranchised in the first place - but that doesn't mean that a Texan golfer, by his/her playing of a global sport, can't make his or her views known in the PPAG E-petition - unless said petition had a geographical as opposed to sporting limitation - that could be argued to be discrimination.

[Dadaist]

Porty - also :

If you were an independent consultant and were given the job of making a summary of the various groups/bodies involved in and/or commenting on the consultation, is this the list you would come up with?

Hard to say. Although. I certainly wouldn't be refuting the facts.

Bob said neither (Texas & Linlithgow signatories) should have a say in the consultation. Do you agree?

I understand the legalities of the consultation and accept them.

Thanks for those answers. Delineating the questions as (1) and (2) - in the above order - could you further enhance those answers by providing "Yes" or "No" to (1) and "Yes" or "No" to (2).

[seanie]

Er...the point of the petition is to try and influence the vote on what happens regarding PHS.

Your distinction between applying pressure, which is acceptable, and trying to influence votes, which isn't, is meaningless.

It's one and the same thing.