Number of Scots who starve to death has doubled

[Porty]

You are entitled to your opinion.

I am categorically 100% correct in the statements that I made; to reitireate

Some people do choose poverty. (I have given a example of 3 but in your opinion that is an *indecent* fact)

I would bet there are tens of thousands people in scotland who do and have chosen poverty.

Who, apart from your aunty and her family? can yuu supply names and
addresses - My esoteric abilities can't help you either

Edit 1


Look at - Item No. 25

http://www.elderabuse.org.uk/Press%20Cu ... uary03.htm

I love the way you skip all the examples that defeat the hypothesis that poverty is the sole cause of death by malnutrition. However, lets look at the one you chose:

"100,000 Scots OAP's Hungry

Experts warn that more than one in eight UK pensioners are eating so badly that they could be suffering from malnutrition and risk death. More than 100,000 Scots pensioners are at risk. Professor Elia, a food expert who highlighted the problem in a report, believes that many old people fail to eat properly because they are poor and isolated. Others have physical or mental problems that stop them getting out to buy food, many lose their appetite because of illness and some become too frail to feed themselves. The problem is even worse in nursing homes and hospitals where up to 40% of elderly patients could be malnourished. Professor Elia is working on a screening system to help doctors tell if their patients are underfed. He wants all hospitals and old peoples' homes to be ordered to screen new arrivals. The Royal College of Physicians found last year that many medics do not have the trainign to spot undernourished patients. "

So, poverty is only one of the potential factors, which proves my point, not yours.

BTW do you have the names and addresses of the 99 who died of malnutrition?

Why is my auntie a figureof fun and an indecent fact when your 15p per week pensioner seems to be evidence?

Also, if there are 100,000 starving scottish pensioners how one earth do only 66 of them die from malnutrition? Are we doing socialist arithmetic again?

[Porty]

I'm right curious,what do you mean (from your own experience) by choosing poverty?
Do they choose to deny themselves material comfort or have they made a specific choice which unfortunately entails this?

One mass example of people choosing poverty is the signifigant number of people among the most economically disadvantaged who spend a portion of their income playing the national lottery. They choose to play it and either don't know the odds or don't care. There are people who are already poor who do this and there will be tens of thousands (names withheld ) who are on the cusp of poverty who impoverish themselves. They have a choice to do what they wish with the money. Choose food, choose health, choose clothes, choose shoes, choose education..........choose the lottery, choose poverty. I would bet my last dollar there are thousands of people who are under nourished who play the lottery. That would be the same thousands of people who would take the bet.

The lottery is thought of as a tax on the poor. Noone makes them play. And the choice to play the lottery is unlikely to be the only economically inefficient decision they have taken.

[Dadaist]

an indecent fact

Porty, I've explained why this is your terminology and not mine.

[Gemini]

Quote Porty>>

Why is my auntie a figureof fun and an indecent fact when your 15p per week pensioner seems to be evidence? end quote<<

Your Aunty chose to live the way she does, the 80 year pentioner didn't.
This particular pensioner worked hard all their life, and saved for their
retirement, due to circumstances beyond their control, which were induced by LRC, they had to work on until they were 72! to enable this person, to appoint experts, and legal representation.

The Scotsman Item, was not the only medium highlighting, the desperate poverty of some of the elderly - Radio Forth had it on one of their bulletins, Tuesday.

I think your statement is ridiculous, people choosing poverty.
Your aunty appears to be the only person - I have heard of - choosing this
lifestyle.

[Porty]

I think your statement is ridiculous, people choosing poverty.
Your aunty appears to be the only person - I have heard of - choosing this lifestyle.

And her two kids.

Mind you, 200% out is not a bad attempt.

[Gemini]

I think your statement is ridiculous, people choosing poverty.
Your aunty appears to be the only person - I have heard of - choosing this lifestyle.

And her two kids.

Mind you, 200% out is not a bad attempt.

The initial post was regarding the elderly, highlighted in the Scotsman
Radio Forth.
Therefore, IMO, this is unacceptable in a Country, which is - I believe
the 4th richest country in the world - not the 3rd as earlier quoted.
However, it obviously makes no difference to the Blairites, they are
too busy grabbing as much as they can, one way or another, for themselves.
You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

[Porty]

The initial post was regarding the elderly, highlighted in the Scotsman Radio Forth.

I am not doubting that 99 people aged between 60 and 74 died of malnutrition in 2004.

I am not not doubting that 40 people died of malnutrition in 1995, so if one compares the two years then the situation is worse.

However, there is nothing in the artcile that confirms that the trend got worse in the intermittent years. Do you know if it did?

We are talking about a group of more than 700,000 (there was 25000+ more people aged between 60 and 74 in scotland in 2005 than there was in 1995 did you know that?) a variation of 59 could be prevalent by a freak of timing, nature or wealthy people with no support, succumbing. There is nothing in the article to substantiate the "pressure groups" claim that poverty is to blame.

Over on the Blair thread you gracioulsy conceded that poverty had reduced for millions of people under Blair. How, with any integrity at all, can you then make the following statement?

However, it obviously makes no difference to the Blairites, they are
too busy grabbing as much as they can, one way or another, for themselves.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Not really, you could read the article again and say

"porty you are right, I cannot confirm that poverty or economic conditions are to blame for the increase in deaths. I don't even know how it was in 2003 or 2002, the article doesn't tell me. I do feel that poverty must have something to with it, it seems like common sense and I know an 80 year old pensioner who got a 15p per week pay increase.
I am happy to concede this but I cannot acccept your statement that some people choose poverty" (cut and paste of you wish)"

Gemini, there are a few questions in this post and I must finish on another one. Do you believe some people choose to be rich?

[Gemini]

The initial post was regarding the elderly, highlighted in the Scotsman Radio Forth.

I am not doubting that 99 people aged between 60 and 74 died of malnutrition in 2004.

I am not not doubting that 40 people died of malnutrition in 1995, so if one compares the two years then the situation is worse.

However, there is nothing in the artcile that confirms that the trend got worse in the intermittent years. Do you know if it did?

We are talking about a group of more than 700,000 (there was 25000+ more people aged between 60 and 74 in scotland in 2005 than there was in 1995 did you know that?) a variation of 59 could be prevalent by a freak of timing, nature or wealthy people with no support, succumbing. There is nothing in the article to substantiate the "pressure groups" claim that poverty is to blame.

Over on the Blair thread you gracioulsy conceded that poverty had reduced for millions of people under Blair. How, with any integrity at all, can you then make the following statement?

However, it obviously makes no difference to the Blairites, they are
too busy grabbing as much as they can, one way or another, for themselves.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Not really, you could read the article again and say

"porty you are right, I cannot confirm that poverty or economic conditions are to blame for the increase in deaths. I don't even know how it was in 2003 or 2002, the article doesn't tell me. I do feel that poverty must have something to with it, it seems like common sense and I know an 80 year old pensioner who got a 15p per week pay increase.
I am happy to concede this but I cannot acccept your statement that some people choose poverty" (cut and paste of you wish)"

Gemini, there are a few questions in this post and I must finish on another one. Do you believe some people choose to be rich?

I cannot confirm that poverty and/or economic conditions are to blame
for death increases, on the other hand, you cannot confirm that they are not.
Again, the point made was, there are increases in malutrition related deaths of the elderly? What I am saying is, this is unacceptable.

I will never accept your statement that some people choose poverty.
(with the exception of your aunty and 2 cousins ) we only have your word on this one!

I believe that many people strive for wealth and success, many embrace the power that money brings. I believe that many who attain their
goals in life, do so at a cost. Money does change people, but sadly not always for the better.

[Porty]

1995 had the lowest recorded number of deaths from malnutrition, last century, consider that.

[Porty]

I cannot confirm that poverty and/or economic conditions are to blame
for death increases, on the other hand, you cannot confirm that they are not.

I am not the one claiming I know the answer and I'm not part of a pressure group that is claiming causation. I have proved the article contains no evidence of causation.

I believe that many people strive for wealth and success, many embrace the power that money brings. I believe that many who attain their
goals in life, do so at a cost. Money does change people, but sadly not always for the better.

So do some people choose to be rich?

[Gemini]

1995 had the lowest recorded number of deaths from malnutrition, last century, consider that.

What's to consider? Of course cases of malutirition have reduced over a century. with the advancement of medicine etc.
people expect, and do - live longer.

[Gemini]

I cannot confirm that poverty and/or economic conditions are to blame
for death increases, on the other hand, you cannot confirm that they are not.

I am not the one claiming I know the answer and I'm not part of a pressure group that is claiming causation. I have proved the article contains no evidence of causation.

I believe that many people strive for wealth and success, many embrace the power that money brings. I believe that many who attain their
goals in life, do so at a cost. Money does change people, but sadly not always for the better.

So do some people choose to be rich?

The newspaper article did not mention causation, however, the
spokesperson on Radio Forth, sited the ever increasing rises in the
cost of living e.g. heat and council tax as significant factor.

Many people choose to be rich, whether they succeed is a different matter.
On the other hand, your aunty, and 2 cousins, you say, wanted to be poor, did they have to work hard to become poor?

It also follows that, some people have riches, that money cannot buy.

[Porty]

The newspaper article did not mention causation, however, the spokesperson on Radio Forth, sited the ever increasing rises in the cost of living e.g. heat and council tax as significant factor.

Was that FM or AM?

Many people choose to be rich, whether they succeed is a different matter. On the other hand, your aunty, and 2 cousins, you say, wanted to be poor, did they have to work hard to become poor?

You misunderstand what I'm saying. My aunt and her offspring wanted to be very rich but were not prepared to do anything other than stick a few quid on the pools/lottery to try and get there. They chose poverty as it best suited their work ethic and truth be told they loved the "thrill" of putting one over on the state.

As you may imagine, they were incensed about the poll tax, thought the accident and emergency department was just called the emergency department, and so on.

It also follows that, some people have riches, that money cannot buy.

And I would count my aunt among them, its just as well cos' she hasn't got any money to buy the other kind..

[Dadaist]

As you may imagine, they were incensed about the poll tax

[Dadaist]

Are we doing socialist arithmetic again?

[Dadaist]

For the record I embrace Socialism

versus

Are we doing socialist arithmetic again?

[Porty]

As you may imagine, they were incensed about the poll tax

Guilty as charged.

[Porty]

Are we doing socialist arithmetic again?

Not guilty. Generally speaking socialists are crap at arithmetic, particularly financial arithmetic. I think they get bewildered by ideology.

[Porty]

For the record I embrace Socialism

versus

Are we doing socialist arithmetic again?

I embrace both my daughters and one of them is not very good at arithmetic.

[Gemini]

The newspaper article did not mention causation, however, the spokesperson on Radio Forth, sited the ever increasing rises in the cost of living e.g. heat and council tax as significant factor.

Was that FM or AM?

Many people choose to be rich, whether they succeed is a different matter. On the other hand, your aunty, and 2 cousins, you say, wanted to be poor, did they have to work hard to become poor?

You misunderstand what I'm saying. My aunt and her offspring wanted to be very rich but were not prepared to do anything other than stick a few quid on the pools/lottery to try and get there. They chose poverty as it best suited their work ethic and truth be told they loved the "thrill" of putting one over on the state.

As you may imagine, they were incensed about the poll tax, thought the accident and emergency department was just called the emergency department, and so on.

It also follows that, some people have riches, that money cannot buy.

And I would count my aunt among them, its just as well cos' she hasn't got any money to buy the other kind..

Forth 2 AM

Your aunty and offspring wanted to be rich! but did not put enough effort into it attaining their aspirations.
So therefore what you are saying is, ' they did not want to be poor, nor did they choose to be poor'. They fell into a way of life that they did not
choose, but are happy to maintain.


Regarding the Poll Tax, this was just as unfair a sytem under MT, as it is
under TB.
Bring on the Cavalry - Tommy Sheridan, is trying to have it changed to better reflect, the ability of people to pay- Your Aunty will be chuffed to the gutties!

Does money buy happiness, for you them Porty?

[Porty]

So therefore what you are saying is, ' they did not want to be poor, nor did they choose to be poor'. They fell into a way of life that they did not choose, but are happy to maintain.

My auntie has never applied for a job never mind actually worked. She was fit , healthy and not unintelligent. Are you seriously trying to tell me she didn't make that choice?

She devoted her time to learning the benefit rules and screw what she could out of the state. I am astonished that you have only just become aware that such people exist.

I am not saying she wanted to be poor, in fact of you look up the thread, I did say she wanted to be very rich. She made a choice the consequence was a life of poverty. End of story.

Bring on the Cavalry - Tommy Sheridan, is trying to have it changed

Would that be the part-time cavalry with the tiny army?

Does money buy happiness, for you them Porty?

You can't buy happiness Gemini. My aunt is happy and she chose poverty.

BTW you are mssing the point about the number of deaths in 1995, bigtime.

[Dadaist]

Would that be the part-time cavalry with the tiny army?

[Gemini]

So therefore what you are saying is, ' they did not want to be poor, nor did they choose to be poor'. They fell into a way of life that they did not choose, but are happy to maintain.

My auntie has never applied for a job never mind actually worked. She was fit , healthy and not unintelligent. Are you seriously trying to tell me she didn't make that choice?

She devoted her time to learning the benefit rules and screw what she could out of the state. I am astonished that you have only just become aware that such people exist.

I am not saying she wanted to be poor, in fact of you look up the thread, I did say she wanted to be very rich. She made a choice the consequence was a life of poverty. End of story.

Bring on the Cavalry - Tommy Sheridan, is trying to have it changed

Would that be the part-time cavalry with the tiny army?

Does money buy happiness, for you them Porty?

You can't buy happiness Gemini. My aunt is happy and she chose poverty.

BTW you are mssing the point about the number of deaths in 1995, bigtime.

I am not interested in getting into a debate, about how your aunty and her family chose to live on state benefits, as said we only have your word
on this one.

Neither am I interested in getting into another long drawn out argument, re Tommy Sheridan,
carryng the banner for the ordinary folk of Scotland. Thank god someone is!
Only time will tell.

IMO there is no need, in this day and age, for anyone to die with malutrition! Tax payers money should be used more wisely, instead of plouging £billions, into wars and big business, it should be ploughed into the Health and Education of our Citizens.

Money is also the root of all evil!

End of discussion.

[Porty]

End of discussion.

Is that an order?

[Porty]

Would that be the part-time cavalry with the tiny army?

Withering sarcasm maybe but accurate all the same. I just wished I had said dwindling army.

[Dadaist]

Porty

Just to confirm your current haul of 4 cards for this argument :

Pre-Emptive Strike
McCarthy
Escalation Of Conflict
Tokyo Rose

4 cards is not a bad haul for 2 pages' worth.

[Gemini]

End of discussion.

Is that an order?

[Porty]

There's always room for improvement.

[Gemini]

There's always room for improvement.

[Dadaist]

pre-war New York. A rich lady gives a dollar to a tramp in the street. The tramp takes his dollar and goes straight to a delicatessen where he buys himself a roast beef sandwich.

As he leave the store, eating his food, the same old lady chastises him for what she sees as the uneconomic use he has made of his money.

"Man!" says the tramp. "When I got no money I don't get no roast beef sandwich. And when I got money I don't get no roast beef sandwich. When is it my turn to get a roast beef sandwich?"

[Porty]

pre-war New York.....

Is New York not always pre-war?

[Dadaist]

pre-war New York.....

Is New York not always pre-war?

pre-WW2.

[Porty]

I called up a woman who was selling her bungalow on Milton Road and it was advertised as pre-war. I found it irritating so I called and asked, which war? She said she wisnae sure and asked me to call back in 20 mins when her husband got back.

No kidding.

[Porty]

Anyway, it certainly seems like I won this particular debate.

[Dadaist]

Anyway, it certainly seems like I won this particular debate.

I won't deny that you've chosen to think that.