"Sort it out yourselves" (PPAG win legal appeal)

[Betty Windsor]

Those of us of a more cynical nature, believed that using the name "Portobello Park" instead of, and not as well as "the Golfie", meant that many people in the area did not engage in the "democratic consultation" because they thought it was somewhere else.
I understand that, normally when these types of consultations go on that the common name for the place is made clear to people.
Maybe because CEC were attempting to "landgrab" this didn't happen.

[Epykat]

Here's another child related analogy for you.

Some kids have a toy. It belongs to all of them, but sits in the corner of the shed, generally ignored and rarely played with, until one of the kids has a bright idea, digs it out, and starts changing it into a new toy. Lots of the kids love this new toy, but sadly one spoilt little brat has a tantrum declaring that it should be left exactly where it is, as even though he never plays with it himself, he likes it that way. When asked about the other kids, he says he doesn't care about them, but says they can have a finger of f**king fudge instead if they're really that upset about it.

But did the manufacturer of that toy have some kind of clause built in when it was sold declaring that it wasn't to be changed? If not, then he absolutely was a spoiled little brat, but if so, then the other kids should really accept it and get a different toy.

[Epykat]

No more "wrong" than calling Abercorn park the Daisy park.

Or calling that lane from just under the bridge to Mount Lodge 'jobby lane'

[rmolehusband]

Those of us of a more cynical nature, believed that using the name "Portobello Park" instead of, and not as well as "the Golfie", meant that many people in the area did not engage in the "democratic consultation" because they thought it was somewhere else.
I understand that, normally when these types of consultations go on that the common name for the place is made clear to people.
Maybe because CEC were attempting to "landgrab" this didn't happen.

That's not cynical Betty, that's delusional and bordering on clinically paranoid.

[AndyK]

Here's another child related analogy for you.

Some kids have a toy. It belongs to all of them, but sits in the corner of the shed, generally ignored and rarely played with, until one of the kids has a bright idea, digs it out, and starts changing it into a new toy. Lots of the kids love this new toy, but sadly one spoilt little brat has a tantrum declaring that it should be left exactly where it is, as even though he never plays with it himself, he likes it that way. When asked about the other kids, he says he doesn't care about them, but says they can have a finger of f**king fudge instead if they're really that upset about it.

But did the manufacturer of that toy have some kind of clause built in when it was sold declaring that it wasn't to be changed? If not, then he absolutely was a spoiled little brat, but if so, then the other kids should really accept it and get a different toy.

By a different toy I presume you mean take that rusty Rolf Harris stylophone from the early 60s and 'refurbish' it into a Sony Playstation

[Epykat]

building on the park will violate anyone's human rights.

Neither will not building on it.

[Porty]

Which is what the Talkporty Mafia want you to believe but actually you're falling into the arrogant assumption of 'everybody's in PPAG' trap. Do you seriously think we sit somewhere in secret coming up with ploys to 'distract' you? .

Who is "we"?

We are the people who have attempted Plan B - there are two, maybe three or four or five of us.

Oh, okay. Well in that case my answer is NO, I don't seriously think "we" sit somewhere in secret coming up with ploys to distract. The distraction is a product of your extraordinary propensity for ignoring professional opinion, facts, consultation, democracy and political will. The staff, parents and kids at PHS are seemingly misguided and poorly informed!!

You come from the "I've lived here longest so I know better" school of thought. Therefore its no surprise you fail to engage in any really substantive way, you distract because you fail to recognise the truth about the predicament we all face.
Essentially, you clearly believe that your years spent as a classroom assistant at PHS bestowed upon you a competency for advising an entire council and community that the school they all think is not fit for purpose is actually fine. It actually is a distraction from what the vast majority of us know to be true.

[Epykat]

By a different toy I presume you mean take that rusty Rolf Harris stylophone from the early 60s and 'refurbish' it into a Sony Playstation

Great idea! Or they could remove all the bits that made it too big and squeeze what they had left onto a smaller toy

[rmolehusband]

But did the manufacturer of that toy have some kind of clause built in when it was sold declaring that it wasn't to be changed? If not, then he absolutely was a spoiled little brat, but if so, then the other kids should really accept it and get a different toy.

No, it turned out there was no such clause, he was indeed a spoilt little brat.

If there had been though, such a clause probably existed to prevent any one kid from taking control of the toy for himself, selling it on and keeping the money. You'd have to admit that it would be pretty unfair if that same clause prevented the children from playing with their own toy in a way that they had democratically agreed* amongst themselves was the best way to play with it. In that case you'd expect them to do everything they could to show how unfair that clause was and to have it ruled as invalid.

*assuming Betty doesn't prove that Golfiegate was a huge council conspiracy to thwart democracy.

[rmolehusband]

building on the park will violate anyone's human rights.

Neither will not building on it.

That's rather unfairly out of context. You can make someone say pretty much anything you want with selective quoting...

we don't need a Plan B because we're going to get a school on the site we want

I'm happy to indulge in a wee bit of banter back on forth on here, but if you're going to resort to that sort of nonsense then the game is pretty much a bogey.

[Franck]

.

[Epykat]

Oh, okay. Well in that case my answer is NO, I don't seriously think "we" sit somewhere in secret coming up with ploys to distract. The distraction is a product of your extraordinary propensity for ignoring professional opinion, facts, consultation, democracy and political will. The staff, parents and kids at PHS are seemingly misguided and poorly informed!!

You come from the "I've lived here longest so I know better" school of thought. Therefore its no surprise you fail to engage in any really substantive way, you distract because you fail to recognise the truth about the predicament we all face.
Essentially, you clearly believe that your years spent as a classroom assistant at PHS bestowed upon you a competency for advising an entire council and community that the school they all think is not fit for purpose is actually fine. It actually is a distraction from what the vast majority of us know to be true.

- truly I'm flattered that you seem to think I have as jumped up an opinion of myself as you have of yourself. I don't believe any of those things. I've never said the school is 'fine', what I have said is that the school is not as bad as some people would like everyone to believe it is, because it suits their purpose for people to think it's falling down, a claim that was made from day one by a Counsellor at one of the first Community Council meetings in the hope that everything would be rushed through without challenge. Unlike yourself I'm a realist and therefore realise that the Court have ruled against you and the predicament you are in might not change any time soon. Unlike yourself I don't claim to speak for the 'majority' and refuse to believe that there are other people who disagree with me outwith the confines of TalkPorty. Unlike yourself I'm not rude and obnoxious and try to ridicule people and turn other people against them because I can't think of anything better to say. Unlike yourself, I have proposed a perfectly viable Plan B. Unlike yourself I've spent time in the school, working in the 'horrendous' conditions with the 'suffering' children and have yet to see all the terrible things that supposedly happen in there on a daily basis. Unlike yourself, I have never scaremongered and upset parents who have yet to have kids attend the school and who truly believe their kids are in danger causing them to worry unnecessarily . Whether I was a Classroom Assistant, a Jannie, a Cleaner, a Teacher or a pupil does not detract from the fact that I was in the school almost every day for nine years, working with the kids, supporting them, raising money for them and generally enjoying their company, and judging by the amount of them (and staff) who still keep in touch with me the feeling must have been mutual. Unlike yourself, I have no reason to be ashamed of the way I've shown myself up by bullying other people into being afraid to speak up.

As far as 'living here longest' goes, I think that is one thing you can claim from me and in fact was something that a couple of the Counsellors who received my email regarding refurbishment thought was very helpful.

Now, go and get a grip and come back with a feasible Plan B and possibly a copy of the expert condition report on the Tower and then I might take you seriously.

[Bob Jefferson]

The last 50 or so posts on this topic have been vaguely amusing at times but largely irrelevant. Feel free to continue if you are having fun but I"m sure most of you must have more constructive things to do with your lives. Ask your partner if in doubt.

I feel sickened, to be honest, by the insincerity of PPAG's offer to 'work together' to find a solution. The only reason that they are still interested in the matter is because they know the park remains 'under threat' and they know that we will leave no stone unturned in finding a solution that will enable us to get the school that our children deserve.

[Scoop]

PoP, I agree with you entirely. This is a great design, low-rise and shrouded in trees but this type of design is not popular around here.

On the contrary, its not popular with PPAG, a tiny group of people, but the vast majority of those who have expressed an opinion are all for it. A school like Holyrood is what we are fighting for.

Do you mean you like the idea of a school on stilts then?

[Porty]

Epykat- you've just had a rant about comparison between you and I, the problem is you and almost everyone else, from the First Minister all the way down to P3. You are at odds and your only justification is you worked in the school. You know better than the hundreds of others who have also worked there. it is a trumped up believe in your own importance, you behave like you think you are superior.

On our side of the debate, we believe we have the best worst option, which has become known as Plan A. None of us instinctively wish to build on the park but we accept there is no Plan B, we believe ther'es no plan B based on the information uncovered in the last six years or so. That's why we are working hard to deliver Plan A, we are confident we will delliver. So please stop asking me or everyone else to come up with a Plan B it is a pure distraction.

[Porty]

PoP, I agree with you entirely. This is a great design, low-rise and shrouded in trees but this type of design is not popular around here.

On the contrary, its not popular with PPAG, a tiny group of people, but the vast majority of those who have expressed an opinion are all for it. A school like Holyrood is what we are fighting for.

Do you mean you like the idea of a school on stilts then?

Er,, i think you'll find that's part of one room on "stilts" - not an entire bloody school.

[Epykat]

building on the park will violate anyone's human rights.

Neither will not building on it.

That's rather unfairly out of context. You can make someone say pretty much anything you want with selective quoting...

we don't need a Plan B because we're going to get a school on the site we want

I'm happy to indulge in a wee bit of banter back on forth on here, but if you're going to resort to that sort of nonsense then the game is pretty much a bogey.

That was actually unintentional Reg - bad editing - sorry

[Epykat]

I feel sickened, to be honest.....

Would that be the same kind of sickened that some people felt when they had their houses egged or their postcodes put into the public domain?

[Epykat]

it is a trumped up believe in your own importance, you behave like you think you are superior.

And do you know something Stephen - I am superior. I'm superior to YOU because I don't resort to personal slights and attempted character assassination of people just because they don't agree with me. I don't attempt to belittle anyone or ridicule them and I stand up for other people who maybe aren't as bullet proof as me. I'm not an aggressive or nasty person but I will fight my corner if needs be so carry on with whatever game it is you're trying to play because the only person who is coming out looking bad in this is you.

(just for the record, Stephen and I had a one sided conversation along these lines in private only last week, but since he seems to want to make it public I feel obliged to go along with his wishes)

[seashell]

This is a joke post, right?????

[Porty]

it is a trumped up believe in your own importance, you behave like you think you are superior.

And once again you choose to avoid the crux and bring it back to personal. This is not about you and I.

There's Government standards for schools for things like overall size, amenities, facilites , space per pupil, recreation and leisure accessibility and so on. Ther are professionals (architects, engineers, space consultants etc) who dedicate their careers to designing schools, They don't just sit in a room and conceptualise, they consult with staff, pupils, education authorites, stakeholders etc. In the case of Portobello High not a single one of those people has intimated that refurbishment of the existing school is a desirable option. I suppose you think that's some sort of ignorant coincidence?

The universal opinion is that the school was a mistake, made 50 years ago. It's too big a school on too small a space.

Then there's you. You totall diss all of the above in favour of your own experiece as a classroom assistant. You really ought to think twice about hurling accusations about arrogance at other people.

You simply don't have the knowledge to understand what a good school design is. That's not a slur. I know you did a brilliant job at Porty and were very well thought of but school infrastructure wasn't part of the skill set. Working out that there's not enough cupboard space is one tiny little aspect, doesn't make one a school design expert.

[Porty]

…and a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Trolls often share ISP addresses for this and other reasons.

Yep, that's my understanding too.

[Bob Jefferson]

I feel sickened, to be honest.....

Would that be the same kind of sickened that some people felt when they had their houses egged or their postcodes put into the public domain?

First I've heard of someone having their house 'egged'. I assume this means that someone threw an egg at someone else's house. How do we know that this had anything to do with the question of where the new school should go? Isn't this the sort of thing that naughty children do from time to time?

Most of us have heard of much more serious incidents, involving PPAG supporters, which resulted in the police being involved. We all know what happened but this has never been discussed publicly and I'm not going to discuss it now.

I'm not sure whose postcode was put in the public domain either, but I thought postcodes were in the public domain anyway so I'm not sure what this means.

Considering how angry people are right now, I think everyone has behaved with remarkable restraint. I don't know how others cope but I personally find that playing football is a very good channel for my aggression.

[Porty]

(just for the record, Stephen and I had a one sided conversation along these lines in private only last week, but since he seems to want to make it public I feel obliged to go along with his wishes)

I started a response to your PM several times but words failed me. i couldn't capture a balanced response. i think we are too far gone for this medium, we get on far better in real life (wouldn't be hard)

I'm going to cease arguing with you now, Wangi asked me to calm it, he may have asked you too. So out of respect for him, I'm done.

[rathbone]

Thank God for that. I am sick to the back teeth of your holier than thou attitude. Wangi may have said something in private, but I’ve had enough of skirting around the issue. Over the last few months I have lost all respect for you Stephen. The way you treat people on this site is a disgrace. Any comment which doesn’t match your point of view is savaged and the people who make it are attacked. You belittle them, you humiliate them, and you dismiss them with what at times is breathtaking arrogance. It doesn’t help your cause and it certainly doesn’t help you.

[Makaveli]

[quote="Epykat"]oh and maybe some people who are inciting their kids to write things like #parkavenuescum on social networking sites which is really not doing anybody any favours in the charm offensive war.=quote]

Which social networking site is that on Epykat?

[Epykat]

oh and maybe some people who are inciting their kids to write things like #parkavenuescum on social networking sites which is really not doing anybody any favours in the charm offensive war.=quote]

Which social networking site is that on Epykat?

The usual ones Mak

[Makaveli]

Strange as I did a google search on the hashtag above and found nothing.

[Epykat]

Strange as I did a google search on the hashtag above and found nothing.

It obviously didn't happen then.

[wangi]

Some kids used it on Twitter, point is what exactly?

[Epykat]

Some kids used it on Twitter, point is what exactly?

Point is Wangi that those self same kids wouldn't have come up with #parkavenuescum had they not been reading derogatory remarks about people who live in Park Avenue which were written by adults purporting to be mature, upstanding members of the community.

[wangi]

That's nonsense.

[Porty]

This forum is a perfect site for proper discussions although it keeps getting diverted by people who give less than nothing.

Which is the entire reason for you being here. Except it's not working. You've offered nothing substantive or even remotely possible towards securing a new school, nothing.

[commander114]

I have to say I prefer the strip along the edge of Baileyfield Road rather than the railway yards. A building on the strip of land along Baileyfield Road that I suggested would then slightly curve to follow the railway course but stop short of the pond.

If the front of any building, ie the surface facing the pond, is kept behind the front facades of the existing terrace of buildings in Hamilton Terrace and remains parallel with Baileyfield Road until curving round very slightly where the railway crosses over the road finally ending short of the pond then you're looking at something like 14000 square metres being available at street level without intruding greatly on the pond and its surroundings. This stays clear of the existing houses. That's approximately 1.40 hectares available for buildings.

A great deal of space would become available on the old site. Most of the existing buildings could be transferred even if the height is constrained. There's a net gain in green space as a result as playing fields are created. The biggest single green area required would be something like 10800 square metres for a football pitch and the site allows this but with the site vacated there would be more than like three times that area available for a football pitch, a pool and parking and other facilities.

In comparison the present tower occupies something like 1200 square metres or 0.12 Hectares. What do all of the present buildings occupy, tower included - 5000 square metres maybe? What do you think the present site extends to - 20000 square metres / 2 hectares ?

You would then have a total of 34000 square metres or 3.4 hectares to work with. You'd be increasing the amount of local green space with playing fields and planting. Is that not enough space to work with ? The present site is obviously available for school use. Is there any reason the strip along Baileyfield Road couldn't be used as well?

[commander114]

Given yesterday's rain plus today's and, remembering the way the park flooded to the extent where you could not differentiate betweeen Figgate Burn, the pond and dry land, it was just one huge pond, do you REALLY want to build a school there?

Morning Sceptic. Yes it was a bit damp around there yesterday. The boards were extremely slippery when I walked across them a couple times. No reason why the park drainage couldn't be improved though. Also meant to mention the old British Legion building looks like its site could be incorporated into a building on the edge of the park. Could be connected with a walkway. There really is a lot of potential down there.