Laurence Marshall guilty of yobbery????

ali · Post by **ali** » 02 Jun 2005, 20:11

The Herald letters page Jun. 1st

Laurence Marshall writes to The Herald to attack Herald TV critic Ian Bell's demolition job review of Sir David Frost's final "Sunday with Frost" appearance -

Defence of Frost
IT comes as no surprise that Ian Bell, who has always struck me as being a bit of a jumped-up yob, should hurl such abuse at Sir David Frost when reviewing (May 30) his final Sunday breakfast show. I've always thought that being polite to folk was a far better interviewing technique than the big-headed, sneering boorishness of Mr Bell's hero, Jeremy Paxman (or John Humphrys or Gordon Brewer, for that matter). David Frost always managed to get much more out of his interviews as a result. I'm not one of those who thinks that interviews should resemble being fed to the lions at the coliseum. I don't want to be part of that audience.
I have some sympathy for yobs who come from poor, deprived backgrounds and rail against society, in part, as a result. Ian Bell and the other gutter glitterati who so disfigure Scottish public life today have no such excuse.
Councillor Lawrence Marshall, City of Edinburgh Council, High Street, Edinburgh.

Todays responses from Herald readers -

I REFER to Councillor Lawrence Marshall's criticism of Ian Bell's review of Breakfast with Frost (Letters, June 1). Councillor Marshall believes in "being polite to folk". But I don't think the best handbook on politeness would encourage him to call an honest journalist "a jumped-up yob" and "part of the gutter glitterati". How very inelegant.
Was ever truth so starkly written as when Bell says of Frost: "The man who will never ask a hard question if he can slap a back instead"? Where is the refined and seemly expression for an interviewer whose sycophancy was obvious and whose ineptitude was shameless?
In these stale times, where the winds of dishonesty blow in high places, we, in the exposed ordinary valleys of life, need to breathe the fresh air of honest assessment.
Morag McKinlay, 36a Weir Street, Falkirk.

Given the remarks made regarding your esteemed television critic Ian Bell by Councillor Lawrence Marshall, I do think the public has a right to know just what this particular "jumped-up yob" has done to the writer.
Assaulted his aged mother, perhaps, burned down his home or spray-painted "Labour Out Ya Bas" on his local bus-shelter? Such bile and vitriol cannot have been caused by Ian Bell's comment upon the smarminess of David Frost, a fact known by all who have suffered the man.
To make such remarks as a councillor from Edinburgh City Chambers does seem outrageous in my view.
George White, 2 Cupar Road, Auchtermuchty.

AFTER the letter regarding Ian Bell's (supposedly) iconoclastic article about Sir David Frost, I am trying to work out in what way Councillor Marshall can justify the hurling of abuse similar to that which he accuses your reviewer of. I guess since I ended that sentence with a preposition I must be a yob as well.
Ian Bell has without doubt been a severe critic of what he sees to be wrong in TV. I myself paid little attention until some curmudgeon wrote some years ago: "If Ian Bell hates TV so much, why do you have him as TV critic?", since when I have rarely missed an article.
If Councillor Marshall would like to go back to the days when a TV interviewer would reverentially welcome some politician with something along the lines of: "Well, Home Secretary, thank you for coming along tonight. What would you like to say to the nation . . . ?", then I think he belongs in a different era. Perhaps the era when Frostie was regarded as cutting-edge rather than cuddly bear.
As for the age-old assertion that those with an education are somehow disconnected from and unable to represent the views of those less wealthy and privileged, I can say only that Councillor Marshall should be ashamed of himself, and I am glad I don't have him as my local councillor.
Gordon Chalmers, Brockville, Raeric Road, Tobermory, Mull.

In my opinion Ian Bell's original article was bang on the button and Councillor Marshall ended up being much ruder about Ian Bell. He always seemed such a nice man too!!!!!

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 02 Jun 2005, 22:46

Totally deserved feedback from the reader's letters. Power to the People.

foxy · Post by **foxy** » 02 Jun 2005, 23:46

I haven't managed to read Ian Bell's review however the last paragraph of Lawrence Marshall's letter is astonishing to say the least

Clearly it's ok to have and express an opinion if you're an uneducated yob with a gripe against society, but if you're an educated yob you should know better

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 03 Jun 2005, 09:45

I wonder if Lawrence realises that Ian Bell is former PHS pupil and one of the first kids from the Magdalene Housing Estate to go to University. I remember him winning an honorary prize for English at giving. (Or as I used to call it; getting

)

I have always enjoyed his writing whether it be Sport or Politics. I've not read this particular article, I do like David Frost's style and I wager Ian was fair in his assessment.

Poor Lawrence, how much further afield is he going to have to go before his writings are deemed acceptable. He started in portobello just a few months ago and he has moved to Glasgow and got short shrift there. What's happening in Gothenburg?

ecm · Post by **ecm** » 03 Jun 2005, 16:48

Porty wrote:I wonder if Lawrence realises that Ian Bell is former PHS pupil

I didn't know that.
I'm trying to picture him about 30 years younger and, presumably, with some hair.

It's not working.

Pal of Porty · Post by **Pal of Porty** » 03 Jun 2005, 16:56

ecm wrote:I'm trying to picture him about 30 years younger and, presumably, with some hair.....

He had really long shoulder length hair, as was the fashion then!

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 03 Jun 2005, 21:53

ecm wrote:
Porty wrote:I wonder if Lawrence realises that Ian Bell is former PHS pupil
I didn't know that.

Definatley, If lawrence think the kids from magdalene who have honours degrees from edinburgh University and who are past winners of scottish Journalist of the Year are Yobs, what does he think of the rest?

Lawrence Marshall · Post by **Lawrence Marshall** » 04 Jun 2005, 20:57

Lawrence Marshall guilty of anti-yobbery, more like!

I had intended to paste in here Ian Bell's offensive article of last Monday but "The Herald" forces you to pay for it - even for my own reply!
"The Herald" is a far better newspaper overall than "The Scotsman" but not in this regard. Nor in its choice of TV critic.
As you can read from the letter I sent in on Thursday to "The Herald", I'd rather read Robert McNeil than Ian Bell any day! Just a pity "The Herald" left that bit out when it published most of my letter today. And Robert McNeil's got a great sense of humour.
I really don't know Ian Bell from Adam but David Begg did once mention years ago that he had been at Portobello High School with him. Since he's not been in any way active in even the wider Portobello community these past 20-odd years, I can only judge him from what he writes. Pity he didn't help save Lismore Primary School last year, for instance. First time Labour had lost a vote in the city for 20 years - there's my commitment to the poorer areas of the greater Portobello area.
What he said about David Frost was unnecessary - but I guess he has to earn a crust somehow. I've just come off a 10-hour shift on the trains. And I'll be back at work tomorrow at 1712 and getting the night bus home.
I've seen a few yobs in my time - even had samples of their DNA removed from my face and clothing!
Just because Ian Bell comes from Magdalene doesn't make him right in what he wrote.
I was wrong to attack him in the way he attacked David Frost - see my letter below - but I still believe that his views, while "right on" to some, were expressed in a way deliberately designed to give offence.
He has shamed the good people of Magdalene.

Lawrence

* * * * *

letter of 2nd June 2005, published in "The Herald" on 4th June 2005:

Dear Sir,
I accept the view of those criticising me today (Letters, 30 May) that it probably wasn't the cleverest or most consistent of moves to hurl abuse at Ian Bell while criticising him for doing the same to Sir David Frost. Two wrongs don't make a right.
That that's not my usual mode of writing, however, illustrates all the more the anger I felt at Ian Bell's ungracious style of journalism.
I don't expect interviewers these days to be reverential but I do expect them to be polite and courteous. The arrogant sneer introduced by so-called "stars" such as Jeremy Paxman is uncalled for and, more importantly, in my view unproductive. David Frost gets far more out of his interviewees than ever Jeremy Paxman does. So let me be positive and praise Kirsty Wark, Edward Stourton, John Milne, Jim Naughtie, Gavin Esler, Tim Sebastian, etc.. As far as TV reviewers are concerned, Robert McNeil is both critical and wonderfully human.
Ian Bell may not "glitter" as much as some but it is undeniable that there is in Scottish society today a "gutter glitterati" whose relationship with communities under pressure is often parasitical. Irvine Welsh and Peter Mullan spring immediately to mind as guilty parties here. Yobs and drug dealers aren't my heroes. The ordinary folk who struggle at times to live fulfilling lives under these circumstances most certainly are.
I understand that David Frost isn't to everyone's taste but his career definitely hasn't been the "joke" that Ian Bell so offensively said it was.

Yours sincerely

Councillor Lawrence Marshall
The City of Edinburgh Council

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 04 Jun 2005, 21:48

Lawrence Marshall wrote: He has shamed the good people of Magdalene.

Lawrence

Eh?

I take it you mean the people of Magdalene who like David Frost's interview style are the good people and are shamed by Ian's crit. Whilst those people from Magdalene who share Ian's views are the bad people or as you like to put it; Yobs and Gutter creatures.

Don't you think a predilection for David Frost is bit of a random barometer for measuring people's worth and lifestyle?

ali · Post by **ali** » 04 Jun 2005, 22:22

Lawrence
Your defence of Frost's chummy, fawning style of interviewing versus Paxman's gritty aggression when combined with your own insulting attack on Ian Bell has, for me, put a big question mark against your judgement.

You're entitled to your opinion but the offence you gave was way out of proportion to Ian's original article. You've overreacted and the "good people of Magdelene" are more likely to be embarrased by your views on this matter than shamed by Ian Bell's excellent and perceptive article which in my opinion was good journalism.

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 04 Jun 2005, 23:09

Quote Lawrence:

Since he's not been in any way active in even the wider Portobello community these past 20-odd years, I can only judge him from what he writes.

Could mention some other's that have not been active in the wider Portobello community for more than 20 years!

Pity he didn't help save Lismore Primary School last year, for instance.

You would be singing a different tune then - should he have assisted the parent's residents, against the closure?

Get real Lawrence, we are aware who voted to save/axe Lismore Primary.
Come the next council election, I don't think the Lismore/Bingham community will forget who was on their side.

First time Labour had lost a vote in the city for 20 years

What a

er!! and poor you lost your vice convenor status too, for a few months, although must say,well done for voting against the closure.

- there's my commitment to the poorer areas of the greater Portobello area.

Your a *

mr magnolia · Post by **mr magnolia** » 04 Jun 2005, 23:15

maybe I've missed something, but what I don't understand is why LM's letter came from

"Councillor Lawrence Marshall
The City of Edinburgh Council"

WTF has CEC got to do with The Herald/Ian Bell?

Post by **wangi** » 04 Jun 2005, 23:17

Hey G, fancy translating the smileys?

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 04 Jun 2005, 23:34

wangi wrote:Hey G, fancy translating the smileys?

Not tonight Josephine

ali · Post by **ali** » 05 Jun 2005, 09:49

Lawrence Marshall wrote:
I had intended to paste in here Ian Bell's offensive article of last Monday but "The Herald" forces you to pay for it - even for my own reply!

Yes - for some reason I was able to cut and paste your first letter and the three responses but I believe it will cost Ã‚Â£1.95 to see Ian Bell's article.

"The Herald" is a far better newspaper overall than "The Scotsman" but not in this regard. Nor in its choice of TV critic.

debatable - I think McNeill would make a better comedy writer. Bell is the better journalist IMO

I really don't know Ian Bell from Adam but David Begg did once mention years ago that he had been at Portobello High School with him. Since he's not been in any way active in even the wider Portobello community these past 20-odd years, I can only judge him from what he writes. Pity he didn't help save Lismore Primary School last year, for instance. First time Labour had lost a vote in the city for 20 years - there's my commitment to the poorer areas of the greater Portobello area.

This is just flannel - Ian Bell is a journalist, not a community activist/politician. OK he could 've campaigned on this issue but his coming from Magdelene doesn't oblige him to.

What he said about David Frost was unnecessary - but I guess he has to earn a crust somehow.

It wasn't unnecessary - it's his point of view - which some people, including me, agree with. You obviously don't. So what?

I've just come off a 10-hour shift on the trains. And I'll be back at work tomorrow at 1712 and getting the night bus home.

good for you mate.

I've seen a few yobs in my time - even had samples of their DNA removed from my face and clothing!

ditto

Just because Ian Bell comes from Magdalene doesn't make him right in what he wrote.
I was wrong to attack him in the way he attacked David Frost - see my letter below - but I still believe that his views, while "right on" to some, were expressed in a way deliberately designed to give offence.

As were yours.

He has shamed the good people of Magdalene.

Lawrence

Wrong for various reasons as previously expressed by Porty and others.

* * * * *

letter of 2nd June 2005, published in "The Herald" on 4th June 2005:

Dear Sir,

........Ian Bell may not "glitter" as much as some but it is undeniable that there is in Scottish society today a "gutter glitterati" whose relationship with communities under pressure is often parasitical. Irvine Welsh and Peter Mullan spring immediately to mind as guilty parties here. Yobs and drug dealers aren't my heroes. The ordinary folk who struggle at times to live fulfilling lives under these circumstances most certainly are.

Your point here reminds me of those people who thought that Irvine Welsh shouldn't be published on the basis that his characters language and lives gave a bad impression of Edinburgh and Scotland. In their view a novel set in Morningside amongst the middle classes was legit but the stories and voices of Pilton, Granton and Muirhouse should not be set down on paper in case it embarrassed the good burghers of Bruntsfield. Irvine Welsh should be congratulated for allowing those voices to be recorded and heard - and if you don't like reading, Lawrence, then turn the page.

I understand that David Frost isn't to everyone's taste but his career definitely hasn't been the "joke" that Ian Bell so offensively said it was.

Yours sincerely

Councillor Lawrence Marshall
The City of Edinburgh Council

I'm with mr magnolia on this one - what's your position as councillor to do with this??

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 05 Jun 2005, 12:08

Just to say - What excellent response's to Lawrence's Herald Article, from Mr. Magnolia,Ali and Porty.

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 05 Jun 2005, 15:02

I'm struggling with the Lismore references. Ian went to Brunstane and I can't remember David Frost even so much as mention Lismore.

Gemini · Post by **Gemini** » 05 Jun 2005, 17:39

Porty wrote:I'm struggling with the Lismore references. Ian went to Brunstane and I can't remember David Frost even so much as mention Lismore.

He probably forgot

ali · Post by **ali** » 06 Jun 2005, 19:25

From The Herald's letter page today

Official view?
ARE we to assume that Councillor Lawrence Marshall's complaints about your columnist, Ian Bell (Letters, June 1 and June 4), represent the official view of the City of Edinburgh Council? Or is the councillor just another petty politician using the cloak of office to lend his weak arguments a semblance of intelligence and authority?
David Clark, 53/14 Viewcraig Gardens, Edinburgh.

TO Councillor Lawrence Marshall: I am standing near the edge of the hole and shouting down, "Stop digging!"
George White, 2 Cupar Road, Auchtermuchty.

Lawrence Marshall · Post by **Lawrence Marshall** » 07 Jun 2005, 12:47

... here's a question: Why was "Trainspotting" largely filmed in Glasgow with the only sections filmed in Edinburgh - if my memory serves me right - being shot by the Black Bull pub in the Low Calton and in Princes Street?
Answer: because the local community in Drylaw, Pilton and Muirhouse wouldn't tolerate the film being shot in their area.
In other words, if Irvine Welsh sought to give a wider audience to the "voice" of that area, it wasn't one that local folk saw as a fair representation. You could always see if any local councillor in that area, of any political party, supports Irvine Welsh. I don't think so - especially when one of them recently had to have police advice and protection for months after trying to have action taken against the kind of folk that Irvine Welsh seemed to glamourise. Councillors, of course, can't hide behind pseudonyms - unlike the folk who write on this Forum.
If you want to read about a local community that's also one of the poorest in the land then you could do a lot worse than read Helen Crummy's 1992 book "Let The People Sing! A Story Of Craigmillar". Published locally in Newcraighall where Helen Crummy and her family still live. I seem to remember that Irvine Welsh was granted special leave as an official of the old District Council to further his writing career. A privilege I wouldn't get on the railway, for sure. Moreover, doesn't Irvine Welsh live in London now?
Anyway, I'm sure Helen Crummy's book is available in the library if you're interested. She signed my copy for me last year.
Finally, I did think about writing in a private capacity to "The Herald" as I have before. However, since I wasn't writing in about the latest storyline in "Eastenders", I did think that the issue involved was "political" in a wider sense and that full disclosure of where I was coming from was probably better than hiding the full truth about myself.

Lawrence

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 07 Jun 2005, 13:39

Lawrence

337 words and not a mention of either Ian Bell or David Frost.

Like the man said, stop digging.

Why not just acknowledge that perhaps you went too far to make your point? A number of people took the trouble to write to The Herald to oppose your stance, as evidenced no-one has supported your position.

I understand why you signed the letter in your capacity as a Councillor but in my view it was inappropriate to do so. After all you were writing to a TV critic.

JMHO

Stephen (Porty)

Lawrence Marshall · Post by **Lawrence Marshall** » 07 Jun 2005, 18:35

Stephen,
I reckon I've got my point across - whether folk agree with me or not.
I've acknowledged the mistake of hurling abuse at those who hurl abuse.
I intend to stop digging!

Lawrence

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 07 Jun 2005, 20:05

Phew! Take it easy man.

sicker · Post by **sicker** » 07 Jun 2005, 21:51

Lawrence, I find it hard to belief that if you were above average at, for example sport, that the railway would not accomodate any leave requirements you might have. Most large firms are usually only to happy to help talented staff.

John

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 07 Jun 2005, 22:32

Lawrence Marshall wrote:Councillors, of course, can't hide behind pseudonyms - unlike the folk who write on this Forum.

Larry - such a shame you couldn't have gone on the latest junket this week - I'm sure you would have had Dubya riveted and even upstaged Cherie with your razor sharp wit, and if you felt homesick I guess you could have popped over to NSA headquarters and spied on Portobello.

Anyway enough about your Dear Leader, my main point, Larry, is that I feel I must mention terminology. You'll find that the youngsters will find you more "cool" if you refer to a comment made on an internet forum as a post, the person who placed it there (albeit attempting to pervert the course of history by daring to hide behind the dastardly cloak of a username) as a poster or user.

I'm not accusing you of saying that one literally writes on a forum, as one would do on a piece of paper, or when you are out at night with your friends spraying graffiti on walls. Had you meant that, I'm sure you would have said "speak" or "discuss" in this Forum.

Can I also devolve (sorry Porty, I didn't want to say dis-affiliate as it might have reminded Larry about the RMT) myself from being referred to as a "folk". This word upsets me as it is the word that Dubya uses when referring to his Confederate friends. I am not a folk.

Toodle pip.

CatzVP · Post by **CatzVP** » 08 Jun 2005, 00:34

Thanks D.

Saved me the trouble of typing pretty much the same

except I would also mention that a superiority complex is not an attractive feature, and neither is being patronizing.

Lawrence

Usernames are a standard idents in every forum on the net, to protect an individuals identity from crime and physical harm until they feel safe enough and also trust fellow users enough to release their true name, (as all main members already have in the past). If you read about real life happenings you might realise this is a good safety shield especially for women, to protect them from abuse or rape, and not the cloak and dagger hiding that you made out. Top marks though for getting so many posts so quickly, only a certain type of person could have that amazing ability.

Ross (Catz)

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 08 Jun 2005, 09:40

Dadaist wrote: I am not a folk.

You are from now on.

Dadaist · Post by **Dadaist** » 08 Jun 2005, 09:58

Porty wrote:
Dadaist wrote: I am not a folk.
You are from now on.

Who the folk do you think you are, anyway?

That's it, I'm going to get the folk out of here etc etc

Porty · Post by **Porty** » 11 Jun 2005, 13:37

Spooky.

In this Year's edition of Promenade, the PHS School magazine, there is a "Where are they now?" section for famous pupils. Ian Bell is featured as "Columnist of the Year"and in the little spiel about him there is a quote from Ian about the Labour Party Manifesto "The thing is 23,000 words long, handily ensuring that even Labour MP's won't get round to reading it"

Is there maybe more to Lawrence's attack than meets the eye? Have you read the manifesto Lawrence?

Incidentally, the magazine is excellent. The above mentioned article was written by John Ferrier, another Magdalene export. John may not be famous but he is very talented and has written quite a number of hit songs for bands such as Wet Wet Wet.